On 2012-04-27 13:48, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
"Entrenched" goes both ways. You can not judge P&T by going to a performance any more than you can judge a politician by one speech. I have watched my share of their work and, while much of it is no doubt far, far superior to that of those who laud them, much is also on the backs of giants and is, in my opinion, exposure plain and simple.

You can not judge P&T by going to a performance any more than you can judge a politician by one speech.

On 2012-04-27 13:48, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
"Entrenched" goes both ways. You can not judge P&T by going to a performance any more than you can judge a politician by one speech. I have watched my share of their work and, while much of it is no doubt far, far superior to that of those who laud them, much is also on the backs of giants and is, in my opinion, exposure plain and simple.

On 2012-04-27 09:46, Todd Robbins wrote:
The reason I have posted this thread is because too many magician dismiss Penn & Teller out of hand. If someone doesn’t like them, that’s fine. But for their dismissal to be valid, I ask that this person fully understand who Penn & Teller are and why they do what they do. And this goes not only for Penn & Teller, but all performers. It’s important to avoid easy knee jerk reactions.

What I like best about Penn & Teller is that they have made choices as performers. And these choices come from who they are as people and how they view and what they think of the world around them. These choices are never just based upon “this will fool them” or “this will get laughs and applause.” And they have never generated material with the intent of angering other magicians. And because these choices are very personal, there has been a consistency to their work for the last 35 years. Their success has been based upon this consistency.

Some might not like the choices they have made, but it is important to understand these choices before disliking them.

On 2012-04-28 17:05, Slim King wrote:
I did a recent interview with the "Dance Monkey Dance" guys and they asked me about Penn and Teller . Listening to that may clarify what you think I think. I'll search the link. And possible on the Xzone too. I consider Penn and Teller performers.

On 2012-04-22 08:50, Todd Robbins wrote:
There have been some threads in another forum vanish, perhaps because they were off topic for that forum. I post this to move the discussion to this more appropriate area.

It’s funny that 30 years ago an unknown Penn & Teller fabricated that they were “The bad boys of magic” and were reviled by other magicians. The fact was that very few in the magic community knew who they were. The public was intrigued by their claim and Penn & Teller’s fame grew. It is ironic that the magic community bought into it and made their stance come true. Early on in their careers a magician, filled with rage, came up to Penn and asked, “Whose side are you on?” Penn answered, “The audience’s” and the public has thanked them ever since.

I find all this Penn & Teller bashing old, tired and sad. Sad, because it is being done by some very good people.

Jim Callahan has created some wonderful performance pieces. Some of the video segments I’ve seen of him are original, engaging and often exquisite. His presence on the TV show Phenomenon was about the only watchable thing on that show. If everyone participating on that program was on the level of the life Jim that brought to it, then that show would have been a huge hit. I was happy to try and assist Jim in trying to find someone in the entertainment industry that could take the attention Jim was getting on that show and do something greater with that notoriety.

On a side note, I’m sorry that Jim didn’t come to see Play Dead when he was in NYC. I would have loved to have dinner afterwards and discuss the show and many other things. I hope we have the chance to do that one day.

And from the limited contact I have with his performance, I feel Slim King has a distinctive talent. Some of the radio clips I have heard have a brilliance about them in the way Slim can take something simple and whip it up into something very effective. It reminds me very much of Dunninger. I have never experience his Roshambo work, but from what I understand, it’s stunning. I am not surprised by this.

What does surprise me is when magicians, because of a myopic point of view or personal agenda, don’t appreciate Penn & Teller. Penn & Teller are two of the most brilliant creative artists, performing artists and businessmen that I have ever met. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of anyone that function on as high a level in these three areas as these two.

A LOT can be learned from studying the success of Penn & Teller, even if the choices they have made are not to your personal taste.
But some people don’t get it, and never will.

And that saddens me.

On 2012-06-04 15:47, gdw wrote:
Jim, although I slightly disagreed with their position with regards to the "rip off" of Teller's Shadows, I do not think it is anywhere close to the effect they have had on "mentalists."

I am getting the impression that to go any further would require using language that would lead you to dismiss what I am saying.
I mean no offense nor aggression, passive or otherwise. I merely often find myself convinced by the evidence and arguments provided by the likes of Penn and Randi, and thus assume that I would likely use similar language to that which you were referring.

On 2012-06-04 17:50, Jim-Callahan wrote:

Quote:

On 2012-06-04 15:47, gdw wrote:
Jim, although I slightly disagreed with their position with regards to the "rip off" of Teller's Shadows, I do not think it is anywhere close to the effect they have had on "mentalists."

I am getting the impression that to go any further would require using language that would lead you to dismiss what I am saying.
I mean no offense nor aggression, passive or otherwise. I merely often find myself convinced by the evidence and arguments provided by the likes of Penn and Randi, and thus assume that I would likely use similar language to that which you were referring.

I am unsure as to the point you are making.

Are we in agreement as to the detrimental effect they have had on many mentalists?

Thanks,

Jim