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Kune Veteran user 312 Posts |
I'd like to hear everyones views on 4 walling (hiring a venue, advertising your show, selling tickets and keeping all the money for yourself).
I've been interested in 4 walling for some time, and was surprised so few magicians seem to be doing it. I since learnt the reason it's uncommon is you tend to fail miserably and lose all you money. I also recently saw Cosentino's live show, and he's sold out a theater with over a thousand seats. He also got 2nd place on Australia's Got Talent, making him quite famous in Australia. Who here has tried 4 walling, or at least looked into it, and do you know of any ways to make it profitable? (obviously doing very well on one of the "Got Talents" seems to be a good start). |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
Since no one is chiming in, I'll offer some perspective. The problem is really quite simple with 4 Walling or any variation thereof. Simply put most entertainers are entertainers and not good business people. Their interests and concerns are on their show and performing. They only consider the 4 wall type of arrangement for the money. They underestimate the risk, get burned acquire a bad taste in their mouth, justify it to typically the wrong reasons (my community is not strong enough, the venue didn't do their part, there was a XXXX in town that weekend, the newspaper screwed up my ads, etc.), and are gun shy to ever attempt it again.
In reality most that do this really don't have a strong enough or polished enough show to be a true attraction. Then on top of that they think about the marketing and promotion from an entertainers perspective, not from the lay public's perspective. I have found that you must have a truly polish and professional 100% top notch ready show. Once this is in place, 100% of your efforts need to be on advertising, marketing, and promotion (as I've stated in previous posts these are three separate things that most entertainers do not understand, or don't understand the differences). This coupled with most do not want to put up the additional $1500-$3000 upfront to advertise and promote even a smaller event. They rely on things like free listing, the venues minimal advertising and regulars, and do very little actively and aggressively to make sure the show is a success. Then on top of this most entertainers are not truly well-versed on the other components of self-producing a show or production, such as working with and utilizing the media, scheduling successful promotional events, mounting an aggressive and successful ticket selling campaign and promotion, creating press releases (an art in an of itself) that gets the media to pickup your story AND gets the public to flock to buy tickets, they rarely have the staffing to handle everything at the event which causes them to cut corners and use unprofessionals such as family, girlfriends, parents and friends, etc. I could go on and on but much will go beyond the realm of comprehension of many standard entertainers (no offense meant). I have been researching this topic for an educational resource for over two year now, and I have been blown away as to some of my findings. This has caused me to delve even farther into this, interviewing some of the nation's most successful four wall productions, and unfortunately the other end of the spectrum as well which has lead to family breakups, the losing of homes and businesses, and even suicide. If I ever finish this (and choose to include everything) it will amazing. More than likely I won't, I will just do the version of the for educational and business purposes as I originally started out to do, without the stories or depth of things I've uncovered. It is a very fascinating facet of entertainment business, which is greatly unknown, misunderstood, and even possible the most complex and yet potentiaslly rewarding facet of our industry. I have spoken to those that 4-Walled bring the Beatles and Led Zepplin to America, to the local performer trying to establish himself in his own local market. Most of the little information that is out there is basic info for very small or minimal shows for a few bucks potential profit at schools, social or fraternal clubs and small theaters, and fundraisers touching only on the basics, which is a great starting point, but there is so much more that can be added, clarified, uncovered and delved into. I am interested in hearing others thoughts on this as well. |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
When I read the title of this thread I thought it was about penetrating the fourth wall. I started in stand up comedy and penetrating the fourth wall is what I am very good at.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
As Mindpro has so correctly pointed out, this is a very complicated issue.
I apologize now for the length of this post, but over the years it can be frustrating to see some fine magicians fool themselves and lose a lot of money trying to 4 wall. 4 walling is an alluring trap for most magicians. It is a money pit for the vast majority, because they do not have the necessary requirements to make it work. Unfortunately, ego and inexperience continues to lead more to a large debt as they believe "if I build it, they will come." There are a lot of things to consider, but basically, it comes down to this. Do people have any reason to pay money to come and see you? For most, the answer is, “No.” Cosentino (I'm sure a fine performer, but I've never heard of him before) had just come off of a national television show in which he obviously did well for himself to place second. That created a following for him and he was almost assured that there would be people that would want to see him perform live. Now, if Cosentino was to come to North America and tried to 4 wall based on his popularity in Australia, he may not be as successful, or successful at all because most North Americans have never seen Australia’s Got Talent or heard of Cosentino. If you regularly can travel to a town or city where you have not been before (not to perform) and do not know anyone and have people come up to you for an autograph or to have their picture taken with you, then you may be successful in 4 walling a large theater. If you can find a community theater that is willing to give you a night to perform and promote your show to their subscribers, and you have some name recognition in the community, then you may be successful in drawing a crowd into the smaller theater. However, when you have neither of these going for you then advertising, stunts, promo’s etc... do not mean that you are going to get bums in the seats. The average person is numb to the “Award Winning Magic of....,” “Appeared on X number of television stations....,” and newspaper quotes from small weekly newspapers that nobody outside of the quaint communities they are distributed has ever heard of. Also, publicity stunts like newspaper predictions, upside down strait jacket escapes etc.... will not fill the seats of a theater. It can often come down to recognition. Look at a popular television show like American Idol. The top 10 contestants prior to appearing on the show would have had problems drawing much of a crowd with their singing. Now, many of them can sell out theaters and perhaps some, stadiums. Their talent has not changed significantly, but their recognition has. I was once told the story by an agent that 4 walled the Apollo Theater in Harlem for his up and coming comedy star. The theater thought he was wasting his money because they had never heard of the act. The shows sold out because the people who buy tickets knew who he was and wanted to see him. That comedian has since gone on to international superstardom and sells out stadiums and arenas around the world in minutes. Another factor is location. If you are fortunate enough to find a venue that has a LOT of tourist traffic and not much competition for their time, you may be able to put in a show, even without name recognition. This is still risky and you want to have deep pockets to get it off the ground and sustain it until it takes of, if it takes off. There is still no guarantee that you won’t lose every cent you put into it. In fact, the odds are that you will lose. Even “semi-famous” magicians have failed doing this. |
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Kune Veteran user 312 Posts |
Mindpro: I certainly got the impression from some peoples posts, they paid $100,000 for their illusions, and $100 for their advertising, and then were surprised when no one turned up.
Am I correct in thinking that Advertising = informing people of the existence of your product (magic show on this date at this location), Marketing = giving people a reason they should want your product (unforgettable magic - funniest comedy - book now and get a free pie), and Promotion = any kind of publicity stunt (going on talk shows and being buried alive, etc)? Sounds like some very interesting and useful research - are you planning to make it into a book? If so, I'd be very interested to read it. RJE2: The longer the better I also note having a lot of recognition tends to make people think the entertainment itself is far more impressive, or in many cases, actually real magic, while if people see the exact same trick performed by someone unknown, the reactions suffer greatly (with some exceptions). From your posts, it sounds like the 4 walling situation is pretty close to what I imagined, although harsher. My present "plan", is to develop a show that plays as big as possible, with as little running cost as possible (not much to transport and not much help needed for the actual show), and polish it as much as I can. Ideally from there, get a large amount of fame (win AGT 3 times in a row, and have David Copperfield name me as his successor), and then go onto making a fortune through 4 walling. Unfortunately I think developing my show will be the easy part So I suppose the real question is, what methods are there for attaining the fame required to be able 4 wall and reliably make good profits? It seems doing well on AGT etc is a very good one. Do publicity stunts like the strait jacket escapes help over time, or are you better off forgetting about them? One other point I was going to make - am I correct in thinking that rather than having your poster say "the award winning magic of the greatest magician. He's been in lots of newspapers and on lots of talk shows and blah blah blah", it would be better to say what's in it for them, and go on about how it's the greatest show, they'll never forget it, they'll be amazed, it's the funniest thing they'll ever see, etc? Thanks again for all the advice! |
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Andrew Loyal user 285 Posts |
MindPro and RJE2,
You both have obviously studied the art and business of Four-Walling and have presented some good points (mainly emphasizing why NOT to attempt it). Thanks for sharing this information. Do you know of any good books on the market that cover this topic? Books that don't mince words about the difficulties, but carefully instruct and guide the performer? I've done a search here on the Café, but have not come up with anything. Your help is greatly appreciated! (If neither of you can suggest such a book, might I suggest that one of you write one...I'm certain many here would be interested in knowing more of the details.) andrew |
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DT3 Inner circle Hill Valley 1920 Posts |
Here's a book you will probably enjoy for many reasons, but mostly for a study in the art of world-class promotion.
It's called "When I Stop Talking, You'll Know I'm Dead." and it's by Jerry Weintraub. Among many other stories of his success as a promoter and manager, he tells you of the times when he promoted concerts for Sinatra, Elvis, Led Zeppelin, Neil Diamond, etc. It's a great read, but more importantly there are some sublime tips on promotion hidden between the lines. I think every entertainer who has the job of promoting him/herself should read this. You will learn a lot and laugh out loud at the stories of his audacity. It's available on Kindle, paperback, hardback and audio. (NB, I'm don't gain anything by recommending this book, which is why there is no link. Just thought it might be of interest to the folks that assemble in this thread.) DT3 |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-04 14:23, Kune wrote: To have that kind of fame you would want to be a YouTube super star, part of a hit television show, a movie actor or have your songs constantly playing on the radio. Until then, you probably will not be famous enough to make a good living off of 4 walling. Last year, I went to a concert with my wife at a theater that is managed by a friend. The venue holds about 3000 people and it was sold out. The music was okay and at times even good. People weren't really there to listen to the music. Most of the audience had never heard this band before. Everyone was there to SEE the front man of the band. It was Kevin Costner. The Kevin Costner. And Kevin knew why people were there and made many references to it and his acting career between songs. The people got what they wanted. To see, hear and be entertained by a real, honest to goodness movie star. Kevin Costner is famous enough to 4 wall and make a good living off of it. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ok so four walling is your goal right? Lets cover what would make people want to buy tickets in a tough economic situation to see you. Seriously that is what it comes down to. What is it about you and your show that is different, special or stands out from the crowd? Your competition is The Avengers keep in mind. You want people to not go see The Avengers, and spend 2 hours, and pay probably at least twice as much to see you.
We have to assume you already have a steller show. One that is on a level with Burton and Copperfield. But even with that, is that enough for them to pay so much just to come see a magic show? As for fame helping let me say this. We have many many many American Idol top ten finalists working here in town and the shows are almost empty. As a matter of fact some are working as singing servers! Yes peddling their CD's and such and hustling tips after being a top ten finalist. (A term which irks me to no end but that is another thread.) Now keep in mind I live in Branson Missouri. A town in which people COME TO SEE ENTERTAINMENT! So if they have this sort of fame, and still have trouble putting buts in seats, how well will it work outside of the town? As for the idea of doing it itself, I have done it. I have tried, failed and had success on some level. But be prepared to lose money till you have a following. Yes the community theater idea works and most are eager to give you the space for a ticket split. They show you HUGE mailing lists and will mail to their members and so forth. Great. But what needs to be considered is the DEMOGRAPHICS of those members! Music works well. But they have a following. If you don't have a following, it is going to be a rough road. Also you need to consider what it costs to produce your particular show. My show was a hypnosis show and production costs were quite minimal. Spectacular type illusion shows in general cost a bit to produce. Also consider what the constraints of the venue are. That does not help. Things to consider when doing this are what else is going on in the town that week? If they have carnivals, festivals, football games or any number of a thousand things going on, it does not matter what following you have it will be tough. Something as simple as the weather in a town that has a lake in the summer will throw off numbers tremendously. The thing is that all these decisions will make it tough financially and you have almost no control over it. If you really want to try to four wall here is an idea. Have shows in 2 fixed points. Make sure these shows are paid shows. Then try to shoehorn in a 4 wall gig in the middle of those 2. This way your expenses are down, and you can learn how to do publicity, and marketing and advertisement. You will be able to amortise the cost of the 4 wall between the other 2 shows. This way you can learn the ropes, and not risk everything every time out. It is a much better option. Then as you build a following, you can move to doing more and more 4 wall gigs and eventually do them all that way. The thing is there is NO shortage of places to do this in. There is an entire convention every year in New York just for community theaters. There is an entire circuit. It is not hard to find places to do this in. Heck hotel rooms have empty ballrooms. It is easy to find a place, it is hard to fill it. That is what costs the most money.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Ya see? I told you it was complicated.
Danny you are right on with your points. Quote:
On 2012-05-04 20:25, Dannydoyle wrote: One time, Dora the Explorer stole our thunder when "she" appeared at a local mall on the day of our show. It was a totally last minute thing on the mall's part. We had no idea we were going up against her until the t's were crossed and i's dotted. Doing stand up in night clubs and bars here in Canada, I can't tell you the number of time shows are delayed or cancelled because of the NHL playoffs. Warm, sunny weather can really put a damper on an afternoon theater show and keep people outside instead of inside in the seats. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Imagine the odds of THIS. Once I had a show in Chicago and the Cubs were IN THE PLAYOFFS! Who can plan for THAT?
So now I root for 2 teams. The Cardinals, and whoever plays the Cubs. Good to see I am not bitter.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
That is a great post above Danny...
If I may add - also timing the show (or advance ticket sales) to stsrt after people have had a pay day might also be considered.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Really wierd to see so many doing it in Vegas. All you see on the strip are the billboards with headliners and wondering what happened to the old days.
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ThatsJustWrong! Special user My flying monkeys are perched on 629 Posts |
Hire a producer. Seriously, spend the money and hire an experienced producer. Then take his proposed budget and increase it by half to set aside enough funds.
I run a small theatre company in NYC and it's all about Four Walling. When we put up a show, we rent a theatre and we are responsible for everything. You don't even know what 'everything' is when you start and 'everything' varies from place to place. Is your mom going to be your House Manager (yeah, you need one of those)? Is she trained as a Fireguard? You need someone certified for that in NYC, so add an extra $10/hr to the salary of whoever you hire to bring their card and sign the book. Wanna rent a union house? Don't even get me started. How much do postcards cost and how does distribution work? These are just examples but I present them to help you realize what a STEEP learning curve self-production has. It may seem like a big loss to split the door with a community theatre but if they do everything else so you can stroll in, be fabulous, and get a check it's worth it. If you are truly self-producing, hire someone to teach you the ropes. You probably won't make it past the "Holy $#!^ that's my budget???" phase, but the exercise is totally worth it. Don't try to be wise, don't work off percentages, pay a flat rate. A producer who is willing to take 20% of an unknown performer doesn't know anything about producing. Hope that helps, Joe
Joe Leo
All entertainers can benefit from some help from an experienced stage director. How about you? www.MisfitMysteries.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
" Find a producer".
3 simple words that are so hard to accomplish.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ThatsJustWrong! Special user My flying monkeys are perched on 629 Posts |
It's easier in NY, Danny; I didn't mean to sound flippant. I was referring also to a theatrical producer but good ones usually know how to match your show to a target audience. Even just getting the budget line items to see what you never thought of is big. But, yeah, it's not THAT easy. You want the equivalent of a Line Producer in the film industry; not the guys who donate cash and come out for awards ceremonies but the guy on set with his finger on the pulse. One might contact the producer of an established company who can use a few bucks since many of us Artistic Directors are also Producers and put a chunk of our own cash into making our shows happen. Of course, a GOOD producer knows not to invest his OWN money
If you are in a big city, you may have producer networks like Theater Resources Unlimited (TRU) in NYC which offers Producer Boot Camp programs. Producing is really an art form of its own.
Joe Leo
All entertainers can benefit from some help from an experienced stage director. How about you? www.MisfitMysteries.com |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
But what about those not in NY? That is the majority Joe.
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
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arthur stead Inner circle When I played soccer, I hit 1773 Posts |
Great thread! Excellent advice from really knowledgeable people.
I have a friend who has, for years, been trying to 4-wall his own events. So far all his attempts have ended in failure. One story he told me was when he discovered a barn in a certain town, where he noticed a lot of events being held. So he contacted the owners, booked a night, made all the arrangements, advertised all over town, etc. On paper, everything looked great. But on the night of his performance, attendance was only half of what he had expected. It turns out there is a real "north side-south side" animosity in this particular town. So everybody from "the other side" of town boycotted his show. You just never know, do you? |
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ThatsJustWrong! Special user My flying monkeys are perched on 629 Posts |
There are theatre companies in a lot of places, Decomposed, and someone is producing. Look for companies with longevity, there's usually one or two movers and shakers who keep one finger on the budget sheet. Just a thought.
Joe Leo
All entertainers can benefit from some help from an experienced stage director. How about you? www.MisfitMysteries.com |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Excellent Joe, thanks. I tell ya I am blessed this year so far. At least the first half. Who knows what the second half of year will be though.
Always focusing more and more on the business side of entertaining. Most of my career I just received whatever came into my hands using a website and emailing. These days I am trying to stay one step ahead. PS: Good story Arthur, thanks. Decomp
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
Click here for NEW PROMO TRAILER! 90 seconds of pure laughs without a standing ovation! Click here for Magicians Austin Mentalist Performance https://www.facebook.com/AustinMagicians https://www.speakermatch.com/profile/gianicano/ Magicians Company Entertainers in Dallas, TX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8sHW_zVuSc https://about.me/motivationalpublicspeaker |
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