Joe outside of New York specifically it is very difficult. You are not accounting for the fact that New York itself has a vibrant live theater culture that simply does not exist almost anywhere else. Even Chicago does not have nearly as vibrant a community of performance art. It would be amazingly tough to just "find a producer" for an unknown show.

I tried to resist commenting on this thread…but… I failed.

I have talked with so many people on this subject and usually they hear nothing that I’m saying because everyone believes that they are the most talented magician on the planet and they have the best show in the world. (Which has very little to do with 4-walling successfully)

First let me say…re-read Mindpro, RJE2, and Danny. No really..re-read them. There is so much information in their posts.

I have 4-walled many times. It is not easy. No. . . scratch that. It’s very, very, very difficult.

I will be reiterating much of what Mindpro, RJE2, and Danny have already said.

First, you have to have a show. Not one that you dreamed up in the last month. You have to have one that has been proved through the test of time and hundreds if not thousands of performances. There are two problems with this first bit of advice…scratch that…first bit of fact!

One: Magicians always think they can write an amazing show overnight. You can’t. Period.
Two: Magicians have a skewed perspective of their own shows. Few have ever gone to a producer or director to have a fair evaluation and/or workshop. Magicians believe that everyone wants to see their show. This is not the case…at all.

I cannot stress enough that if you don’t have a show tempered through the flame of actual performing in front of real audiences…you will fail. And that is only the second most common reason 4-walling fails.

The number one reason magicians fail at 4-walling is because they don’t understand business. Having a good show is only once small part of the equation. Here’s some of what you need: Marketing, Sales, Internet work, publicity, Lights, Sound, people that will work at the theater, Website, Branding, networking, Sales-in-kind, Pay-out-back, Print/hard copy, Programs, Demographics, Ticketing, Cross promotion, etc…oh..and a show.

I have at least one magician a month that contacts me about 4-walling. I ask, “Do you have a business plan?” The answer is always…yes always…”No”. Most of them think that they will spend $500 bucks and start making $5000. They always think this.

One year my wife and I had a 20 show run that took us a year to put together. We had invested over 15K before anything had really happened. So, when magicians come to me with their $500 budget and tell me they are ready to launch their amazing show…I can only shake my head.

One problem I see over and over again is that magicians have no idea of the market they want to “take over”. They make a post on an on-line forum. Call a guy that looks like they're doing it and expect that person to lay out their “Business and marketing plan” for them …for free.

This is not unlike, “Hey, you know I want to run a bowling alley…let me walk over to pro bowl alley and ask them to lay everything out for me and tell me how they are doing it.” I don’t know you and you made very little effort to get to know me…but you want all my information.

10 years ago, I was interested in a certain market. I made friends with a couple of people in that market. I learned from watching and trying different things. Then I worked as a roadie in that market for a few months. Now, I had a working understanding of what I was going to be getting into. It’s only then you can start to ask the intelligent questions.

As Joe Leo suggested getting a producer would be a good idea…trouble is…difficult to find a good producer..outside the major markets..and one that will want to work with you.

This is business and it’s all about the spread sheet and how the numbers will fall. Typically when a performer comes to me with their plan…they really have no plan. They have a few numbers that look good until you started adding in the expenses. Most of which they had no idea even existed.

I hate to rain on anyone’s parade of happiness but the truth is the truth.

RJE said the following: “There are a lot of things to consider, but basically, it comes down to this. Do people have any reason to pay money to come and see you? For most, the answer is, “No.”

If you can find a way to answer this question…then you can start thinking about producing a show.

Well said Christian & Katalina


Reality does hurt at times.

Great advice everyone. Christian was dead on and it dawns on me that I may not have been clear with an IMPORTANT piece of my "Get a producer" suggestion that I alluded to but was not clear:

You need to find an experienced Producer/Producing Director/Theatre Company Manager who will tell you how to spend YOUR money. You're hiring a coach, not an angel! A good line producer NEVER invests his own money. He lines up financing from others but that part's just not going to happen for you. The skills of his or her's that YOU will be paying for are a knowledge of publicity, unions, venues, insurance, house management and guest services, printing, merchandising and the like. Pay them for their experience and ignore them at your own peril and don't be cheap; with people as well as props, you get what you pay for.

Will that make it easier to find someone? Probably, because you are going to pay them to basically mentor you through the process. Find the guy who ran the successful fundraiser for your local theatre company and has single-handedly kept it afloat for ten years. I think you get the idea, I'll hush now...

Good luck,
Joe

When I first arrived in Las Vegas I was told right away that they wanted to see at least $225,000.00 in your bank account, and a two year business plan BEFORE they would even consider having a meeting with me. Once you get to the meeting they immediately want to know who your creative and production team is and if your utilizing investors, so they can look further into that. Many, many elements that they standard performer does not understand.

Then people will say, well that's Las Vegas, but if I do it here in my home town it will be different. From that very thought on, you see the ship beginning to sink. Good thoughts so far. This is a topic (along with touring) that many pros are very reluctant to talk about and offer any real details or figures. This is exactly why I started working on this project. Unfortunately the ones most willing to talk are the ones who were burned badly. Those few that have had decent success, either don't want to talk or will only share with me "off the record". I have some GREAT stories and experiences that I have been told, but have given my word they wouldn't be included in the project. This is truly fascinating, and I would surely say high risk. Here in Vegas I believe it's the biggest gamble in town. Not to mention other popular locations like Branson, Reno, Atlantic City, etc.

I always say that Branson actualy has had gambling for decades. It is called doing a show on the strip. Biggest gamble, with the worst odds on the planet.

Painfully true!

It's also a very emotional process that few here discuss, understand or think about. You may put your entire family on the line, remortgage or borrow against your house, have your entire family working to assist you, as your opening comes nearer you get a great sense of closeness and bonding, excitement, and hope of success with everyone involved, and you are all in this together - family, friends and staff. Your adrenaline and energy are so high. As the press starts to hit in the papers and local media, your excitement builds, confidence soars, and you begin to feel invincible as it seems to be working already.

Then, as in the majority of cases, when it doesn't click, and starts going bad very quickly, all of these emotions change drastically to a completely different set of emotions - scared, disappointment, anger, disbelief in yourself, feelings of failure, personal loss, professional loss, depression, and so many others. It's an emotional ride that ultimately many have trouble handling and coming to terms with.

Even if yo experience initial success, you always have the feelings of "is this only temporary? How long will this last?" One bad or slow show, and you begin to question everything.

It almost seems it's dying like the American Drive In movies. What an illusion the strip is. It certainly is eye opening.

I have heard so much about Branson and being such a small place, how did it all get started there?

That is another thread.

There is an easy formula to make a small fortune in Branson. Start with a large fortune and open a show.

Hello all.
about the advice 'have a good/polished show'. I've heard that advice many times (but never from someone who's watched my show).
While that is the gospel truth, that's hardly the whole story.

I've seen entertainers with inferior shows who make a nice living off of that inferior show. I find it frustrating, and I've always just chalked it up to "he must be a good businessman".
The greatest show on earth won't get anywhere if no one sees it, while a mediocre magician can make great money because of his corporate contacts.

Mentalist entertainer Benji Bruce has a book out called "how to get booked" which I recently purchased, which has a few paragraphs on this topic. Here are the details of what he accomplished:

location: fancy hotel ballroom
price: $55 per ticket
show length: 60 minutes
# of shows: 2. one at 7 and one at 9
size of audience:50 per show maximum!

success of show: Very!

It comes down to the marketing, utilizing local tv news stations and other local media like radio and facebook. Free advertising is always the best advertising. look into benjis ebook, I was pretty satisfied with it, despite having a lot of filler, it was still packed with plenty of useful information on this subject.

See, that is the type of BS advice people who don't know what they are talking about write and people who don't know any better try to do and then lose their shirt. It's old hat and there have been unfortunate souls that have thought they had figured it out decades before Benji was born and now know that it is a fool fooling themselves who takes that advice.

Here's a simple way to test this pudding. Look at the number of people in North America alone that call themselves magicians. Would it be a stretch to think that perhaps 25,000 to 30,000 of these call themselves working magicians, either full time or part time? How many of these do you think have tried to do exactly what Benji is suggesting? How many have you gone to see at their 4 walling show?

Are we seriously going to start the Benji nonsense again?

I would like to revive this outstanding thread I just came across.

Some fantastic info and advice here from MindPro, Danny and RJE2 among others.

I have thought for some time about approaching a local hipster "boutique" hotel in my town to partner on something similar to what Dan White or others have created in other markets. Maybe rent a small room for 50-60 and explore an ongoing run.

But having read this thread I can see that the challenges can be daunting and also vastly underestimated.

It can be done. I've done it for years with success. As matter of fact if your not doing anything this Saturday come to our show. Click the link for info. and tickets. http://www.centralillinoismagic.com/

Is this s Father/Son 4 Wall?

Yes, Some show's Troy will headline and sometimes me. Keep changing it up to bring them back. In October I work alone and do a Halloween Show all month at the same theater. I also produce some other shows at other venues around Central Illinois.

Very nice, congratulations! They must be working well for you.