I have been performing this regualary since it's release and the discreceny at the beginning has never been noticed. It's such a little thing that spectators just don't pick up on. Magicians thinking the appearance of the 5th card is bad/reveals the method or whatever is typical magicians thinking like magicians. I can honestly say that I find this phase of the routine to actually be the strongest when I perform it.

How can you KNOW it has not been noticed? Specs (some) are (still) polite, and are not going to call you out on it. Just because your audience has some social grace is not reason to be unconcerned about what they really think...

That is true, but some spectators will call out any little thing they find suspicious, even if its nothing. If the discrepancy really bothers anyone its simple to use a little misdircetion. It is incredibly minor and shold not put anyone of trying it out.

This is a good point. Some people are too polite to mention they've noticed something. However, the discrepency at the start of Spin Doctor is minor, and can easily be covered by a little time misdirection as John explains on the DVD.

Sometimes it is better to hide a discrepency rather than add another move/sequence to a trick, especially when the move/sequence itself might create more unwanted attention.

Marty

I don't think you really need to know beyond the overwhelming response. What does it matter really that your suit is a bit snug if everyone is telling you how great and trim you look in it? I'm just saying'

Do you wonder at all, when everyone seems amazed, whether or not someone/anyone caught you at some point in an effect, saw a flash, etc.? Probably not, you just accept the response as you being successful. I think knowing that there is a discrepancy to be hurdled shouldn't make one feel that he has opened the door to be less-than successful. Misdirection covers discrepancies as makeup covers blemishes if applied appropriately. Especially in most cases as to this that specs do not catch this little thing and if they happen to notice it, they do not understand it within the context of the effect. Any such concern about this is like worrying about if a doctor gave you one too many or one too few stitches on an old cut long since healed.

To repeat...

"my venue is magic, and I want my audience to NEVER be able to suss out the method"

just the weird way I think, maybe. If it is discovered that someone stole money a year ago, that fact will color the opinion of a lot of people who find out, and it will color it for a very long time. I think the same is true of a magic effect- even if it is three days later, the magic and the magician are lessened in the mind of the spec who finally figures it out. I have a lot of Bannon stuff and he is brilliant. I tend to use the ones that are harder to uncover- for example I have Twisted Sister, but I use Duplicity. Different strokes...

And now I quietly apologize for disrupting the thread, and slowly slide into the shadows...

Jim

Spin Doctor is a killer packet trick. Sorry to disagree with Mr Mystoffelees, but people genuinely have no idea about the discrepancy. It is a subtlety (or discrepancy) that is given the same misdirection that would normally cover a move. Only you are misdirecting from no move. Trust those of us who have performed it everywhere, it really isn't noticed. I promise

Liam.

You might've diagnosed your own ailment here, Jim.

And you didn't disrupt anything, you're thoughts are appreciated. Just tried to offer a little alternative road to the way, as you say, you might be thinking or perhaps over-thinking this thing. Anyway, it's all good, now come on back out of those shadows, that's where all the wrong thinking usually comes from. And without offering another analogy for you to respond to here, I will more simply agree with the way Liam succinctly put it.

-Mb

One of the biggest constants in performing any close-up magic is that spectators can't remember exactly what happened three minutes after you finish, let alone three days. To think that they are going to reverse engineer your effect based off of a visual discrepancy days later simply doesn't resonate with my experience.

These types of visual discrepancies are designed to fool the mind and not the eye. Their minds will remember what they thought they saw. For example, I love the Tenkai Optical Revolve, which is itself a discrepant move. Of all the crazy explanations people have come up with to explain an effect that uses the move, NO ONE has even remotely suggested an explanation that comes close.

Finally, if you think the magician is lessened in the mind of the spectator that "figures it out" then you're probably a very frustrated magician. What I mean by that is that many spectators will apply false reasoning, false logic and false memories in a jumbled mass in order to figure out a trick. Once a person is satisfied they "figured it out", no matter how far off course, then in your view the magic is lessened. There is no way to stop the spectator from reaching erroneous conclusions (sometimes false avenues of explanation are built directly into an effect) on their own after the fact. To base the success or failure of a magician on this premise is a losing proposition.

Not frustrated at all- just a happy working magician, partly because I avoid discrepant magic... and ad hominems...

Jim

Really? That's such a bizarre limitation to put on your magic. You don't do anything with a face-up Elmsley? Or a flushtration count? Or a slop-shuffle? Or a cross-cut force?

Yes, discrepancies are noticeable if someone knows what to look for. But so is a top change. The whole idea is that you structure your presentation so the audience is not concentrating on that which is discrepant.

Thanks for the tip...

I love discrepancies. They make me giddy inside. And most of the best effects have them.

Here's a trick of mine which has some discrepancies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m4oasNdQSY

Now, being magicians, you may have noticed that I show five cards... Then do two Elmsleys. But guess what? Never been called on it by a lay person and I highly doubt I ever will be. Why? Because the focus is on what is on what is happening TO the cards. Not how many cards there are in the packet.

In the Bannon effect, the discrepancy happens before you "do" anything. Before their guard is up. It flies because you haven't gotten to the trick yet. I've done Spin Doctor many times. Never been called on the initial discrepancy.

Posted: May 23, 2012 1:43am
And, btw, even if no one says anything, you can tell when a spec sees something. There is usually a small physical reaction: a head jerk, a narrowing of the eyes... Not always, but I sometimes know when I've been busted even if they don't say a word.

I have been performing this effect for years now. It was one of the first effects I ever learned, and it lead me down the path of learning about several different Twisting the Aces effects. And after comparing and contrasting several different ones, this is my preferred routine. The multiple kickers just completely blow the minds of spectators.

With that said, the "holes" in the routine are addressed in the DVD. I have only ever once been caught with them, and that is because I didn't follow the advice in the instructions. The discrepancies give me an opportunity to interact and be more personable with your audience which goes a long way into making me a better entertainer.

Dai Vernon said something to the affect that all great tricks have at least one discrepancy.

I think he was referring to a typo in the instructions...

Getting "caught" in this instance wouldn't so much be the trick's fault as the performer's failure to manage the audience properly. I say this because (with much of Bannon's magic) there IS a discrepancy, but he expects the performer to use time misdirection.

Maybe don't start with this effect? Warm up a crowd with an effect that doesn't mind having lasers shown on it, then shift to Spin Doctor.

Anybody got a link to Spin Doctor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hONxuoj5fw

Looks good!