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MikeBeaudet Loyal user Becancour 228 Posts |
Sorry, I should have read wikipedia before asking my questions !!!!! Do you agree with everything about you in wikipedia ? Were you involved in the writting of the article on you ?
Do your best and forget the rest
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Sean Giles Inner circle Cambridge/ UK 3517 Posts |
Herbert, Are you ashamed of what you did , with hindsight?
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
I have had nothing to do with the Wiki site. It has changed my history so many times. There is plenty, even too much, out there when you Google my name. I am a private person and it is scary the amount of info on me.
Sean, what, exactly, are you referring to? |
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Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
I know what Sean, is posting about and so do you.
Answer his question. Jim H.O.A-X
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-06 17:49, TheSphinx wrote: Mike, contrary to popular belief, no, I was not "ex-communicated" by anyone. Several of the largest magic shops were very quick to offer tricks and illusions for the shows. The shows purchased tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment at a time when Tannen's and Magic, Inc. were not doing this sort of business. I continued to be close friends with the same top magicians I was before and the shows brought connections to more of the top magicians. So far as magic clubs, I stopped being a member of SAM sometime back in 1978. I cant recall if I was ever a member of IBM. But keep in mind that the Masked Magician shows were not my property. Again, the producers simply licensed my material from my publisher. Hope this helps. |
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MikeBeaudet Loyal user Becancour 228 Posts |
Herbert,
Thanks for your kind and honnest answers. It is clear that the Masked Magician "issue" could easily be controversial, but at the end it is not really different to what we see these days with all the DVDs and books where all the magician's secrets are revealed. You know I believe that revealing a secret for a magician is a paradox!!! Mike
Do your best and forget the rest
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
I had previously posted my comments here and they were deleted.
So let me re-frame them in a less vitriolic manner and hopefully they will survive. Herbert: you arrive here with an admission that you were an active participation in what was one of the largest public exposure campaigns to date. Someone who exposes magical secrets -- in particular -- secrets that they do not own is, to my mind (how do I say this in the way least likely to be deleted?) morally and professionally corrupt. Stolen and exposed secrets hurt the creators as well as the performers who have purchased and perform them. Framing an explanation saying that it was good for magic companies is frankly laughable. It is a business built on secrets and the presentation of those secrets. In my opinion, one who learns them inside the community and then reveals them to those outside the community is one who no longer deserves the trust of the community. Obviously you see it very differently. David PS: Moderators...if you see fit to delete these comments as well, so be it. It's your website and you can decide what appears on it. I get it. I won't re-post here again. But the notion that the Magic Café -- a website I respect -- would roll out the welcome mat to one who has been so very involved in the selling of magical secrets is utterly baffling to me. I am not sure what you're doing...but I agree with your right to do it. Your call.
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
David,
Since you continue to be unclear with your question, I will try to work through it by guessing that you are talking about the various Masked Magician specials which were originally aired by FOX TV. A quote from you, "Someone who exposes magical secrets -- in particular -- secrets that they do not own is, to my mind (how do I say this in the way least likely to be deleted?) morally and professionally corrupt. Stolen and exposed secrets hurt the creators as well as the performers who have purchased and perform them." I did not choose which tricks were performed on these shows. I did not perform them and I did not buy them. I was not consulted on which tricks they were interested in. So far as I know, the producers went to several of the largest magic shops and discussed with them what they were doing and working in conjunction with them, they purchased tens of thousands of dollars of tricks. I am also told that the producers went to several builders of magic and had some tricks built specifically for the shows. My opinion as to what is right or wrong regarding either the show or revealing magic tricks is moot in this framework. Regarding exposure, there are many of today's performers who, on a regular basis, explain how tricks are done. P&T seem to have worked it into their show. I doubt they own the tricks and I am not commenting on it being right or wrong. It is what it is. Hope this answers your questions. Herbert |
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MikeBeaudet Loyal user Becancour 228 Posts |
David,
I really don't understand the "tone" you are using because Herbert was honnest with us admitting that he was involved in the series. Also he is answering my questions without trying to justify something. And do you really think he has to justify something ?. Who are we to judge him ?. Don't forget he's also a magician. Part of our community. I repeat what I wrote in my last post "...revealing a secret for a magician is a paradox!!!". When I started learning magic in my youth, every book I bought had words about keeping the secrets and never revealing them and blablabla...but the first pages of the books were always about secrets !!!. Actually you can find everything you need in the Internet, in the DVDs, the books, etc. The secrets are no longer hidden... So, from my point of view, revealing magic secrets is not a question of it's good or bad (and I'm not talking about stealing secrets which is another story!!!), it's an intrisic paradox of the magic domain. Magic is based on secrets, and learning and sharing magic is just about revealing secrets to someone. Finally maybe we should start a forum about Ethics in magic !!! Sorry for the quality of written english. I hope I didn't hurt you in the way I said my point. Mike
Do your best and forget the rest
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Mike: Let's say you created an effect. You poured years into developing it and getting it just right. Further -- let's say that you chose to market that effect to your fellow performers. You are making money and members of the community are using your creation.
I think it's fair to say that any ethical performer will help you keep your secret safe. We are, after all, in the "secrets business." It is in the performer's best interest to do so, as they have invested money in your creation and it has become a valuable item to them. Why is it valuable? Because it's method is secret. So you're marketing your creations. Performers are buying them. Your effect, in essence "your baby" becomes well known. Then one day some jerk comes along who had nothing to do with the creation of your effect and tells members of the public exactly how it works. He explains it in detail. How would you feel? Taking it a little further -- how do you think the performers who have invested in your effect feel? How about the ones who WOULD have purchased it? (If you don't see this scenario as the outright theft and exposure -- the total devaluing of "secrets" -- then I give up trying to explain it.) How do you think the larger fraternity of performers feel about someone who took their community secrets and showed them to the public? Then let's say that that same jerk shows up on...oh...let's say a forum that is frequented by magicians and mentalists. It's true that he doesn't make any secret about what he's done in the past which, I suppose, is commendable. He admits to having been a part of showing your private secrets to the public...and exposing other classics as well. Shall we welcome this person with open arms? Seriously? I cannot even see the basis for a debate...so I'm not about to engage in one. This is my last word on it. Either you "get" why exposure is one of the most shameful things a performer can do...or you don't. So you say that this man is a member of your community. You are welcome to him. He is certainly not part of mine. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
David,
Your problem is that you continue to create your own scenario by making false claims. In your "story" you talk about a person who owns a specific trick and then someone you call a jerk, reveals it. None of that happened, so far as I know, with Masked Magician shows. I am not aware of any tricks which are sold with a secrecy contract which were used on the shows. Furthermore, no one who chose, bought or performed those tricks on the show is a member here, so far as I know. This is the problem with your outbursts. You are acting in an offensive manner and you are not being honest. You are not having an open conversation, you are attacking others and being condescending. Herbert |
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Mary Mowder Inner circle Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA 3659 Posts |
Herbert, did you make money exposing Magic secrets? Did you make money off of the Masked Magician project?
Did you ask the people who's work was pillaged for their permission? I don't like exposure of effects that one did not come up with. I really don't like the P & T exposures either but it can be argued that Penn and Teller have done a lot of other things for Magic. What Magic effects have you created? I don't see who makes you or anyone else the arbiter of who's act is outdated and needs to be brought up to date. So, if the originator of an effect failed to have a lawyer draw up a contract that included a secrecy clause that makes it open season? I'm trying to be openminded but bottom line I don't want to discuss Magic with you. Talk magic with some of your Famous Magician pals. It is obvious that you don't care about not so famous Magicians who payed hard earned cash for some of the effects exposed on the Show. Many Magicians are operating on a shoestring and may only own one or two illusions (if that). Others may do as they wish. I do not want to discuss Magic with you. You had to guess there might be some Magicians who would feel this way. I'm sure the cash you received for the project will assuage your disappointment at not being able to discuss Magic with me. -Mary Mowder |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Were you or were you not the executive director of the early Masked Magician shows? (You have already said that you were earlier in this thread.)
Did you or did you not expose Copperfield's and others' illusions, without their permission, in at least two books written for the public? Is this you on a one hour special Maury Povitch show exposing magic? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JwxexsxKlA |
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
Mary,
All of your questions were answered earlier in this thread. Mastermindreader, David Copperfield has no ownership of magic secrets and I never exposed any of his tricks. Yes, I did a one hour TV special with Maury Povich and I sued my publisher for copyright infringement and won. Hopes this helps with the clarity. Herbert |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Is it in fact true that the reason you sued your publisher was because they did not include the secret to one of Copperfield's illusions that you had originally included?
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
Mastermindreader,
I am sorry, but that is not correct. The lawsuit was for copyright infringement, excluding text does not create an infringement. A publisher has the right to exclude whatever they desire. Infringement is when an authors written words have been changed or when words are attributed to an author are included in a work which were not written by the author. Herbert |
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
Mastermindreader,
Congratulations on these awards. PEA Dunninger Award 2011 PEA Dave Lederman Award 1996 Herbert |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Didn't Copperfield in fact sue you in order to prevent you from publishing the secret to one of his illusions? Does the following newspaper article accurately portray what happened?
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pGc......,3145539 What I am really looking for here is a statement from you regarding your position on the public exposure of magic secrets. I think that is a relevant question to ask given that you have joined this forum where magicians frequently share information. |
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herbertlbecker New user 2 Posts |
Mastermindreader,
No, that article does not accurately portray what happened. I have no position on the public exposure of magic secrets. Herbert |
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MikeBeaudet Loyal user Becancour 228 Posts |
Mastermindreader,
There's a lot of emotions in this thread!!! My initial questions to Herbert were not to start a debate on what is good or bad. Or to judge what he did as executive director of the shows. And since we do not have all the facts, only partial informations from many sources, we don't have to "re-judge" the lawsuit. What do you mean by "public exposure of magic secrets?". When a magician wrote a book or produce a DVD It is not a public exposure of magic secrets ?. Mike
Do your best and forget the rest
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