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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2672 Posts |
Ok, there are some pretty skilled people around on these forums as well as novices and I probably fall somewhere in between, but I guess this question is to everyone.
The are MANY demonstrations on various retail magic websites which show you the trick/illusion/routine you are perhaps going to purchase. Now I'm no brainbox, but over the last week I must have deciphered from repeat watching about 4 really rather good tricks which are retailing from about $30 plus from a variety of card tricks, coin and bill tricks. How often are you guys watching these things and simply working them out? I have to say that all the tricks I have fathomed have been absolutely brilliant and are going straight into my repertoire, but I'm no genius and I think it doesn't take much to work a lot of this stuff out if you know just a little more than the basic sleights with cards and coins etc. Well? C'mon, you must be doing this all the time! |
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Jeff Inner circle Orlando, FL 1238 Posts |
And that's why I will not put up a video demo of my effect "The Joining".
Jeff Pierce
Available for order now:
http://www.thecardwarptour.com See new, used, and collectable magic and books for sale at: http://www.jeffpiercemagic.com |
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Daniel J. Ferrara Jr. Regular user Long Island, New York 182 Posts |
I own a site that has demo videos on it. I know that there are some videos that people can figure out if they watch them over and over. However, I also know that that same person will pay for something that they repeatedly watch and can't figure out.
The point of my demo videos is so the consumer can see the trick performed before buying it. If the trick isn't good enough to fool them, than they shouldn't buy it anyway. I guess what I am saying is, we know some people will take advantage of the videos, but hopefully more people will actually pay for the products. So have fun and let me know which videos are easy to figure out. http://www.5fingermagic.com |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
If you are going to perform someone else's material, the RIGHT thing to do is to pay for that material, whether or not you figure it out on your own.
The fact is, you received that idea from that person. You should pay for that idea. (The idea of the routine was not yours, you saw that on the video. Even if it was constructed out of basic moves, that combination did not come from your head. Its like saying you should be able to perform any musician's music because it was all made up of the same 12 notes. Pay for the idea.) Magic is not a game that allows those of us who figure something out to steal the intellectual property of someone else. Rationalize all you want, but to take someone elses ideas without compensation is theft. Do the right thing. Buy the trick. |
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Moffmo Regular user Castleford 143 Posts |
I agree with truthteller because for you to figure out the trick, the inventor must have the idea in the first place...
Matt |
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
Eugene Burger has said (or he was quoting someone else), "My act is not a buffet from which you may pick and choose." If someone published an effect AND you PAID for it, then you may use it.
Mark
What would Wavy do?
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Well... For the sake of asking...
If I figured out David Copperfield's illusion methods but perform them with different presentations than his... Do I need to pay him?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Florian Rago Loyal user Lincolnshire 202 Posts |
I personally have worked out a whole gammat of effects from videos, but not on purpose, it just clicks in. I have worked out:
In a flash Paperclipped 3-D multiplying rabbits NFW Colour Monté Transfusion any card matrix (but not the one with bare hands) airtight Dragon thread Shock FX Golden Key and twisted sisters My advice is, if you can work it out easily, don't bother buying the effect, but instead learn from the mistakes of the performer on the video. Florian Rago |
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Reg Rozee Special user Vancouver, Canada 592 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-10-28 10:27, Pakar Ilusi wrote: Pakar, let me put it this way... If you listened to a song written by a musician you like over and over until you could play and sing it yourself, but you play it on a piano instead of a guitar or you play it a little faster or with more drums, do you think you have the right to perform it without paying him because you do it "differently"? In this case we can see clearly that it would be wrong, and I think the same thing applies to magic. Of course, people do this with music all the time just like they do in magic. But if you really want to be recognized as a talent, I think you need to perform your own material. -Reg {*}
Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. -Phillip K. Dick
Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -Chico Marx |
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cheaptrick Loyal user Wilmington, Delaware 251 Posts |
I feel that the secret is part of the price you pay when you buy magic.
These demos are very valuable, and give you important performance tips. Penguin's Professor's Nightmare has a great false count. Now, I got my PN out of a book somewhere so long ago, I forget where. I have no problem with using their false count, though, because I spent money with Penguin.
"Pick any card. NOT that one!!!"
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MikeJRogers Veteran user Australia 354 Posts |
Respect the creator - besides we all know you gain much more than just the effect when you purchase something. You're also buying the creator's views on the effect and the creator's consent to perform it. Don't become a rip-off artist; be nice!
Lol, just my thoughts. Mike Rogers
Mike Rogers Illusion Design - Australia - http://www.mikerogers.com.au
"Nothings impossible, the impossible just takes longer" - Dan Brown novel - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
My thing is this, Reg...
What I figured out from watching Copperfield was the base method (just to use one example). Now, the "Base Method" isn't Copperfield's. It's been in use in various forms for ages. Even Copperfield's aren't really Copperfield's, they're Steinmeyer's, Gaughan's, Mendoza's etc... You see where I'm coming from? (Not being sarcastic at all, btw...) Just to be completely clear, it's not the presentation I'm using, it's the basic method. In this case, the base... Anyhow, I personally hate it when people try to "copy" Copperfield, some all the way down to his hair style. Talk about NOT being original... "Better a second-rate version of yourself than a first-rate version of somebody else..." -Unknown-
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Eric Grossman Elite user St. Louis, MO 429 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-11-02 02:22, Reg Rozee wrote: Reg, That's what cover bands do, and they get paid for it. There is nothing wrong with that. You cannot record and sell a CD of someone else's material, but you absolutely can perform it live, professionally. As well as being a magician, I also perform music, professionally. I actually had the honor of sitting in with a cover band once, that covered one of my band's songs. It was great, and a nice compliment. My band will very often perform remakes of classic songs, to include with our own stuff. Actually, we do one cover almost every time we tour. I think the same should be true of magic, as long as you don't claim credit for the material. Respectfully, Eric Grossman
family/magic/music/life
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Jesper Amstrup New user Denmark 89 Posts |
If I can figure something out that easily I don't want to use it.
I bought Just Passin' Thru on a recommendation form a friend. I didn't even receive the trick or see it before I figured out what the gimmick was. Although it's a good visual trick I don't feel good about preforming it, so I don't. Maybe I just got (un)lucky. If a tricks method is so obvious that you can figure it out by seeing a video a couple of times, the creator shouldn't be selling the trick. If someone markets a trick so easy to figure out the don't deserve the money. Russ Niedzwiecki is excused Just Passin' Thru must be good. It fooled some of the most knowlageble magicians I know. But much of the stuff that's realeased isn't worhth the money. Standard props and gimmicks excused of course Jesper |
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MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts |
We all look at effects much differently than laymen do, we see passes, double lifts, shuttle passes, Ramsey subtlties, and regular old gaffs.
When a laymen see's a levitation they don't just say, "Oh its the LeClair hookup". Just because you can figure something out, does not mean it isn't an extremely great trick. You are around to fool laymen, not magicians. |
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Jesper Amstrup New user Denmark 89 Posts |
I know MacGyver.
But if I have to pay... say... 30$ for a new trick, I want something new. Not the same priciples used over and over in the same way. And in the end. If I don't feel comfortable with something because I feel it's too obvious the I shouldn't preform it I can get exited about a series of sleights used in a combination I haven't seen before or an improved gimmick or method. But I don't want to pay for junk - and prove me wrong - there is a LOT of junk out there. Jesper |
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Johnnymysto Regular user South Carolina 116 Posts |
I think this is a small drawback to putting demos on the Net. I have figured out an effect from watching a demo, but it was a classic effect that is in many books. So, I didn't rip anybody off because I didn't buy THEIR trick. I think that there are many more tricks that no one could figure out just from the demo, and even if they did they'd have to practice it a lot to make it look as good as the demo.
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usa Regular user 183 Posts |
Just figuring out a trick from a video is not a sure sign that the trick is bad, if you remember the saying that you shouldn't perform the same trick twice for the reason that a spectator will know what is going to happen and look for things, in real life performance you can't ask a magician to show you something 20 times so you can figure it out.
but you can rewind your video. |
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1039 Posts |
You beat me to it usa! That's just what I was going to say, ditto. I saw a trick on a demo video ONCE and it was fantastic, when I watched it the SECOND time around they TOTALLY gave the trick away.
On just the second go round! I was STUNNED that they put that video on the net, and here's the upshot of this story... It's still on their site and has been for months on end. They should either re-film it so you can't tell what happened or take it off completly, and it's one of those tricks anybody can make. If they are wondering why this trick is gathering dust on their shelf all they have to do is check THEIR OWN WEBSITE. If I can't figure it out (or even if I can) this has absolutely no bearing on whether I will end up purchasing it or not. The effect has to appeal to me first and foremost.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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Reg Rozee Special user Vancouver, Canada 592 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-11-11 01:29, Eric Grossman wrote: That's sort of what I was getting at, Eric. Regardless of what cover bands do and get paid for though, if you perform someone else's music live (especially if YOU get paid for it), I believe you legally owe them royalties (that's how I've always heard it—any media lawyers out there?). It's their hard work that is helping to earn your money. It's just that no one ever forces the issue (although legally they could). Most artists don't consider it worth the effort to pursue this kind of thing (how could you possibly monitor it?), and I'm sure many are flattered by it (such as yourself). After all, a live performance is a one-time thing, unlike recording their material. From a magic perspective, if what we are talking about is basic principles and sleights as Pakar clarified, I think this would equate to the musical equivalent of things like a 12 bar blues pattern, 1-4-5 chord progressions, and things like that. You can learn that stuff by listening to someone else's music, and use it in yours, but if that's all you take from it your music will be original. And music that is too old to be copyrighted like Christmas carols, classical baroque, etc. is wide open. But if you copy someone's latest top ten note for note and riff for riff, I think they have a right to be paid for it or ask you to stop performing it. -Reg {*}
Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. -Phillip K. Dick
Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -Chico Marx |
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