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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-06-10 00:05, acesover wrote:
Would you want there to be a Supreme Being or would you prefetr that we are here by one big accident?
...


have you read Scalzi's book Redshirts?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


For at least the third time, Kam, the Church is NOT governed by a literal interpretation of Scripture. Apostolic tradition and the Magisterium both are extremely important. If you read the Catechism that I have cited to you, you will find the answers to virtually all of the questions you are asking.

It seems that you are intent on staying focused on literal and fundamentalist interpretation and using it as a sword to attack the Church. The Church does not believe that homosexuals shall literally be put to death or that children should be sold into slave bondage.
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


Because we subcontracted Westboro Baptist Church to do the dirty work.

**********************************************************************************

The Old Testament presented situations to the people of that time period that were unique as opposed to the people of the New Testament. In other words different times. I'm sure that's what you wanted to hear. So, I'll let you run wild with that for a while. It's actually a multifaceted argument but it all comes down to a single result.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
The great Gumbini
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Kam,

The women are to remain silent in Church came about because women and men would sit on opposite sides of the Church and women would call to their husbands if they had a question about what the sermon was on. It distracted the others so Paul asked the women to remain silent. Now it is true that women are not to be the Pastors of a Church over men. God has a specific calling for women and men and a structure. Remember God stays the same but people do change. However when you pull away from God's Word you get what we have today---a world in chaos. Remember I wrote awhile ago how one of the problems that face the Scriptures today is people speak against it WITHOUT knowing fully what it means. The example you gave is a perfect illustration. Reading the Bible and studying it are two different things. The Bible says to STUDY to show ourselves approved---not merely reading. Yet the simple thing to know is Christ and Him crucified. That is how we are saved and that is what we need to know.


Good magic to all,


Eric
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Kam,

You also need to remember that laws are in place that would not permit some of the Biblical punishments today. But all that aside Jesus is the One who died so we can be forgiven from our sins. The law and it's punishments were the reason Jesus had to come. That is good news indeed.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Payne
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On 2012-06-29 00:31, The great Gumbini wrote:
Kam,

The women are to remain silent in Church came about because women and men would sit on opposite sides of the Church and women would call to their husbands if they had a question about what the sermon was on. It distracted the others so Paul asked the women to remain silent. Now it is true that women are not to be the Pastors of a Church over men. God has a specific calling for women and men and a structure. Remember God stays the same but people do change. However when you pull away from God's Word you get what we have today---a world in chaos. Remember I wrote awhile ago how one of the problems that face the Scriptures today is people speak against it WITHOUT knowing fully what it means. The example you gave is a perfect illustration. Reading the Bible and studying it are two different things. The Bible says to STUDY to show ourselves approved---not merely reading. Yet the simple thing to know is Christ and Him crucified. That is how we are saved and that is what we need to know.


Good magic to all,


Eric


But if you had really studied the bible then you would have known that the edict from Paul instructing women to be silent in church is a forgery. That it does not appear in the earliest known copies of the text and was most likely inserted due to a copying error where marginalia got placed into the body of the text.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.......sid=1384
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
mastermindreader
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Payne is correct. Virtually all biblical historians agree that the text referred to wasn't written by Paul. And the story related by Eric about why women were forbidden to talk in church is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous. A simplistic account most likely intended for children in Sunday school.

It is also a fact that MANY Christian denominations allow women to be pastors.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 23:00, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


For at least the third time, Kam, the Church is NOT governed by a literal interpretation of Scripture. Apostolic tradition and the Magisterium both are extremely important. If you read the Catechism that I have cited to you, you will find the answers to virtually all of the questions you are asking.

It seems that you are intent on staying focused on literal and fundamentalist interpretation and using it as a sword to attack the Church. The Church does not believe that homosexuals shall literally be put to death or that children should be sold into slave bondage.



LOL....Bob, please try and stay patient with me. I am not trying to attack anyone, or the Church. I think together we can all learn something. Well, actually, maybe I'm the only one learning something, and its obvious Bob, you are learning to get frustrated with me, Smile Please forgive my persistence, but I promise, I am trying to understand all this stuff better, that is my main motive. To correlate what I know from the Baha'i Writings with what those in the know within Christian circles, may be able to help me with. I don't want to hear these things from Baha'is, I want to hear it straight from a Christian tongue Smile

So, based on what you are saying Bob, which parts of the quote related to homosexuality is "symbolic" and which part is "literal"? If it is all symbolic, what is your interpretation of the quote then?

How does the average Christian know what is the symbolic meanings in the Bible, and which are literal?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


My understanding from your posts is that the Baha'i position is that the Bible is correct, but these sorts of legal edicts were temporary for their time, as opposed to the more eternal spiritual stuff?


Basically, that is the Baha'i position, yes Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 01:51, kambiz wrote:


How does the average Christian know what is the symbolic meanings in the Bible, and which are literal?

Kam


That's why there are Priests to explain it to them. Unlike Protestant churches, the Catholic Church does not encourage individual interpretation of the Bible. In fact, until the late 19 Century the Church discouraged Catholics from even reading the Bible on their own, lest it be misunderstood.


Again, the answers to all of these questions from a Catholic perspective can be found in the Catechism.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 01:57, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


My understanding from your posts is that the Baha'i position is that the Bible is correct, but these sorts of legal edicts were temporary for their time, as opposed to the more eternal spiritual stuff?


Basically, that is the Baha'i position, yes Smile

Kam


What's the Baha'i position on why it was ok to kill people for their sexual orientation a couple of thousand years ago?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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This is nothing new. It's definitely not a forgery. It may or may not have existed in the original text, no one knows but there are no existing copies that do not contain the marginal addition. When a letter of instruction went out to a particular church, there was not just one copy sent. Is this St. Paul's actual thought? Probably so as it appears in 1 Timothy 2:11-12. The piece you posted only quotes 1 Timothy 2:12, but v. 11, which he leaves out, sounds and awful like v. 35 in the 1 Corinthians passage. In fact, it sounds pretty Petrine as it appears in 1 Peter 3:1, although different wording and context.

The fact that the two verses, originally just two sentences, are in the margin does not mean that someone else - other than St. Paul - a scribe, put them there of his own volition. It is just as highly likely that St. Paul placed them there as he is obviously the author of the letter. Other letters contain his thought and instruction but are written by others, it is obvious that when it comes to the Corinthian letters it was St. Paul that put pen to paper. We do know that St. Paul authored the original letter and handed it out to scribes to copy. The world at that time was highly oral, having something written down was a serious matter as the author wanted to ensure that his voice, thought and message was received. Therefore, scribes copied everything as it was given to them; there would be no thought of ever adding anything to the author's words, especially with the communique carrying the author's signature or seal. All of the Pauline Corinthian letters bare St. Paul's signature and seal. All the letters have the marginal addition. It is mere conjecture that there is a missing letter that does not have the addition. It's like the infamous Q source. People theorize it exists but, in fact, no Q source has ever been found.

Peace and Godspeed
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
mastermindreader
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The existence of Q, however, is widely accepted by textual critics and historians. It's existence can be easily inferred from similarities and differences in the synoptic Gospels.

As to that, as well as the authenticity of the Pauline letters, see Bart Ehrmans, "Misquoting Jesus - The Story of Who Changed the Bible and Why."(2005) ISBN 978-0-06-085951-0

The idea that scribes never altered anything is demonstrably incorrect. Just look at the last paragraphs of Revelations, where the author lays out the drastic penalties that await anyone who dares alter any of his words. Numerous generally accepted proofs of alterations and additions can be found in Ehrman and many other sources. Note, for example, that John 8:3-11 (the woman caught in adultery) is a much later addition to the original text and doesn't really belong in the Bible at all.
Dreadnought
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I know Bart, he's freaking nuts (and I mean that in a good way). He's a good guy. Every scholar accepts Q but there is no actual evidence that it actually exists. I wrote a paper on why Matthew was the original gospel and not Mark. I was actually forced into writing it as a comment I made in class caused an uproar with an instructor (a priest) who was having a bad day after grading papers from a canon law class. The point of the paper and my argument was that modern scripture scholars seem to dismiss the Early Church Fathers and their writings in regards to scripture, especially those in the late 1st and early 2nd century, those closest to the original writings.

There are alterations and additions. The most famous, or infamous, is the addition of the Pericope Adulterae(The adulteress) in John 8. Most scholars attribute it to Luke, I have never quite understood how it went from Luke to John, although it does sound Lucan as it deals heavily with forgiveness a theme seen in Luke and Matthew which textural scholars jump all over causing them to scream "Q!" and "ALAS, MARCIAN SUPREMECY!"

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 23:24, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


Because we subcontracted Westboro Baptist Church to do the dirty work.

**********************************************************************************

The Old Testament presented situations to the people of that time period that were unique as opposed to the people of the New Testament. In other words different times. I'm sure that's what you wanted to hear. So, I'll let you run wild with that for a while. It's actually a multifaceted argument but it all comes down to a single result.

Peace and Godspeed.



Hi Dreadnought Smile

I swear to you by my life, if you think that I am asking these questions to simply amplify my ego and project myself as someone who is "smarter than anyone else here", I would unhesitatingly stop right here and now, and leave this discussion without a hint of doubt that I have erred, grievously. Please accept my apologies if I have come across in that way at all. My intentions is to humbly offer something, that it may aid and assist in an avenue of exploration that may not have been looked at before. Smile

Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:17, Dreadnought wrote:

Everyone seems to be worried about stuff they have no control over. TRUST ME, I am sure He will make His presence known to all. He says so in Sacred Scripture, that there will be no doubt in anyone's mind.

Peace and Godspeed.


I humbly offer this to you all. It's addressed to the Christian world Smile Please read from beginning to end if you wish to understand the spirit of the message fully.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

I'll leave it at this for now. If you wish we can explore how He will make his presence known to all Smile


:) Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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On 2012-06-29 02:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
What's the Baha'i position on why it was ok to kill people for their sexual orientation a couple of thousand years ago?


Evolution of scial consciousness Lobo. Education builds over time, both personally and collectively. Go back another 5000 years and people may have been killing others because they had blue eyes (thats just a theoretical example, may not be true, but it serves the purpose of aiding understanding of the Bahai perspective).

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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That explains (I guess?) why it was done; it doesn't explain why it had divine sanction,
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 02:14, Dreadnought wrote:

All of the Pauline Corinthian letters bare St. Paul's signature and seal.



Since there are no known original copies of Mr. Paul's letters this is conjecture on your part. They very well may have been signed by him and sealed (most important documents were) but since what we find in the Bible is copies of copies of copies we cannot be certain of exactly what was in the original letters. All we have to work from are the early fragments of the texts that survived. The earliest of these contain no command that women remain quiet in church. So historians and textual critics conclude that this statement was not in Paul's original letters.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
kambiz
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It is clearly obvious that the death of human beings by divine sanction was a norm within all Abrahamic Faiths. (which form part of the Adamic Cycle of religious history)

Baha'u'llah has abrogated all of this with the heralding of the Bahai Cycle.....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 11:10, kambiz wrote:
It is clearly obvious that the death of human beings by divine sanction was a norm within all Abrahamic Faiths. (which form part of the Adamic Cycle of religious history)

Baha'u'llah has abrogated all of this with the heralding of the Bahai Cycle.....

Kam


that's what we in the legal business call non-responsive.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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