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kambiz
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Well what would you consider "responsive" ?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 05:43, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 02:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
What's the Baha'i position on why it was ok to kill people for their sexual orientation a couple of thousand years ago?


Evolution of scial consciousness Lobo. Education builds over time, both personally and collectively. Go back another 5000 years and people may have been killing others because they had blue eyes (thats just a theoretical example, may not be true, but it serves the purpose of aiding understanding of the Bahai perspective).

Kam


Why would human consciousness be supposed to precede divine guidance? I would think that its divine guidance that is supposed to change human consciousness after (and by) changing human behavior.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 11:21, kambiz wrote:
Well what would you consider "responsive" ?

Kam


I think your first answer was responsive. I didn't find it satisfactory, but it was responsive.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 11:22, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 05:43, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 02:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
What's the Baha'i position on why it was ok to kill people for their sexual orientation a couple of thousand years ago?


Evolution of scial consciousness Lobo. Education builds over time, both personally and collectively. Go back another 5000 years and people may have been killing others because they had blue eyes (thats just a theoretical example, may not be true, but it serves the purpose of aiding understanding of the Bahai perspective).

Kam


Why would human consciousness be supposed to precede divine guidance? I would think that its divine guidance that is supposed to change human consciousness after (and by) changing human behavior.


You are correct Lobo Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Then your earlier post that divine instruction followed changing human consciousness doesn't make sense to me.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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I am having a hard time understanding why a religion founded in 19th Century Persia is any more relevant to the 21st Century world than any other faith. The world has changed far more in the last two centuries than it did in the 1800 years that preceded the appearance of Baha'i.
kambiz
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On 2012-06-29 12:50, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Then your earlier post that divine instruction followed changing human consciousness doesn't make sense to me.



The animating force behind the evolution of human consciousness throughout history is the spirit infused into all created things by the gushing showers of grace from a new Revelation from God. All material, intellectual  and spiritual progress comes from this "spirit of the Age"

"And when the hour at which Thy resistless Faith was to be made manifest did strike, Thou didst breathe a breath of Thy spirit into Thy Pen, and lo, the entire creation shook to its very foundations, unveiling to mankind such mysteries as lay hidden within the treasuries of Him Who is the Possessor of all created things.' "

All religions have their purpose and once that purpose has been fulfilled, the spirit and grace vouchsafed onto it declines, then problems arise due to a gap developing between human behaviour and the evolution of human consciousness. It's usually at this time that God reveals Himself again, propelling human consciousness and inspiring different behaviors resultingly.

Let us look back at the reasons any Divine teacher came. They all destroyed bad habits that were disrespecting the purity of Gods Message, and brought with them a revitalizing spirit, propelling civilization in an onward direction. That's why, in the Bahai Writings, they are often referred to as Divine Physicians; the world is afflicted with a malady and They come to prescribe the remedy.


Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 14:15, mastermindreader wrote:
I am having a hard time understanding why a religion founded in 19th Century Persia is any more relevant to the 21st Century world than any other faith. The world has changed far more in the last two centuries than it did in the 1800 years that preceded the appearance of Baha'i.


Hi Bob, as a Deist who doesn't affiliate with any religion, even with your intrigue with Catholicism nevertheless, what is your understanding of who Baha'u'llah was? (given you have an element of impartiality)

Was He from God? What makes Jesus "from God"?
What is your impartial thoughts on the differences between Jesus and Baha'u'llah?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Just know what I have read about him:

Quote:
Bahá'í history is often traced through a sequence of leaders, beginning with the Báb's May 23, 1844 declaration in Shiraz, and ultimately resting on an administrative order established by the central figures of the religion. The religion had its background in two earlier movements in the nineteenth century, Shaykhism and Babism.[1] Shaykism centred on theosophical doctrines and many Shaykhis expected the return of the hidden Twelfth Imam. Many Shaykhis joined the messianic Babi movement in the 1840s where the Báb proclaimed himself to be the return of the hidden Imam. As the Babi movement spread in Iran, violence broke out between the ruling Shi'a Muslim government and the Babis, and ended when government troops massacred the Babis, and executed the Bab in 1850.[1]

The Bab had spoken of another messianic figure, He whom God shall make manifest. One of the followers of the Bab, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned by the Iranian government after the Bab's execution and then exiled to Iraq, and then to Constantinople and Adrianople in the Ottoman Empire.[1] In 1863 in Baghdad, Bahá'u'lláh claimed to be the messianic figure expected by the Bab's writings. Bahá'ís consider the Baha'i religion to start from Bahá'u'lláh's statements in 1863.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_history

And that small portion of the history of Baha'i is all I was referring to in my previous question. How are the teachings of mid-19th Century self proclaimed messianic figures any more relevant to today's world than teachings that arose 1800 years earlier? More changes in society have taken place since the 1860's than in the entire period between the beginning of Christianity and the appearance of the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh.

That was the only question I was asking.
kambiz
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I think the nature of Divine revelation is that it is far far advanced in terms of guidance (revolutionary in fact) to the environment and social conditions that it presents itself in.

It is interesting to see a self proclaimed Messianic figure (they are All self proclaimed aren't They?) Writing explicitly about the unification of the human race, and the Catechism talks about it too Smile

For me this indicative of the spirit of the Age

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The great Gumbini
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Kam,


There are NUMEROUS prophecies that Jesus fulfilled from the Old Testament. Here is a site that will show you a lot of them and you can look these up and see what you think. Google "Prophecies of Jesus Christ as Messiah". He fulfilled EVERYTHING written about Him. Hope that helps.


Good magic to all,


Eric
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Jesus is "OF" God and there is a difference. Yes God sent Him but in so doing God sent OF Himself. Remember the words used in the Bible all mean something. Even the word "Of" is vital.


Good magic to all,


Eric
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Bob,

YOU are one mistaken. This is exactly what was taking place. Although SOME evidence points to this not being in the original older copies there is sufficient evidence to show it belongs. I'm only offering the reason it was stated. As to if it is or is not supposed to be in there I will assume it is. The reasoning behind the words however are as I stated. This was no Sunday school dismissal of this Scripture. A lot of people for a long time thought Paul was a chauvinist for writing this and that simply was NOT the case.


Good magic to all,


Eric
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Bob,

Are you saying SCRIBES penned the New Testament? I'm quite sure you wish to take that back yes?


Good magic to all,


Eric

Yes Scribes DID make mistakes and those were never put into circulation. The Jews even had a numbering system for the Old Testament writings and each writing was gone over and added to see the letters matched. Oh if Scribes had been in charge of the New Testament! But at any rate we do boast a 99% pure rate for the New Testament. A course in apologetics will answer a lot of these questions people have as to the accuracy issues of the New Testament. It is very accurate and can be trusted. Bob I did not mean to embarrass you but at the same time you know I could not let that slip away.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Eric, what does the word "of" mean in your example?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 21:26, mastermindreader wrote:
Just know what I have read about him:

Quote:
Bahá'í history is often traced through a sequence of leaders, beginning with the Báb's May 23, 1844 declaration in Shiraz, and ultimately resting on an administrative order established by the central figures of the religion. The religion had its background in two earlier movements in the nineteenth century, Shaykhism and Babism.[1] Shaykism centred on theosophical doctrines and many Shaykhis expected the return of the hidden Twelfth Imam. Many Shaykhis joined the messianic Babi movement in the 1840s where the Báb proclaimed himself to be the return of the hidden Imam. As the Babi movement spread in Iran, violence broke out between the ruling Shi'a Muslim government and the Babis, and ended when government troops massacred the Babis, and executed the Bab in 1850.[1]

The Bab had spoken of another messianic figure, He whom God shall make manifest. One of the followers of the Bab, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned by the Iranian government after the Bab's execution and then exiled to Iraq, and then to Constantinople and Adrianople in the Ottoman Empire.[1] In 1863 in Baghdad, Bahá'u'lláh claimed to be the messianic figure expected by the Bab's writings. Bahá'ís consider the Baha'i religion to start from Bahá'u'lláh's statements in 1863.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_history

And that small portion of the history of Baha'i is all I was referring to in my previous question. How are the teachings of mid-19th Century self proclaimed messianic figures any more relevant to today's world than teachings that arose 1800 years earlier? More changes in society have taken place since the 1860's than in the entire period between the beginning of Christianity and the appearance of the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh.

That was the only question I was asking.


Bob, having read Baha'u'llahs Tablet to the Christian world, who do you think Baha'u'llah was after reading it?

Does His Words have any impact on your thinking at all?

I would appreciate Dreadnoughts thoughts too of this Tablet Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The great Gumbini
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The word "Of" is used for an actual TAKING OF meaning. In other words Jesus IS God BECAUSE He is The Son OF God. Now God the Father is God because He is in and of Himself. that's why you have The Spirit OF God and The Son OF God but then you have The Father. NOT the Father of God but simply The Father.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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So Eric, what do you make of Baha'u'llahs claim that He is the Father, and the voice speaking to Moses in the Burning Bush?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Eric-

You haven't embarrassed me at all because I didn't write anything that wasn't historically accurate. Virtually all that we have of the New Testament consists of copies made by scribes. No, they didn't pen the originals and your statement that I said they did is false. They copied them. Over and over again for centuries.

Please advise where we can find Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's original and complete handwritten Gospels. HINT- They don't exist- all we have are copies made by scribes.

And those scribes occasionally made mistakes, added, removed, or rewrote certain portions of the text.

That's just the way it was and no serious scholars have ever maintained otherwise.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 00:53, mastermindreader wrote:

Please advise where we can find Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's original and complete handwritten Gospels. HINT- They don't exist- all we have are copies made by scribes.



Also remember that when Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were penned they weren't known as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those names were added much later-- by a second century bishop if I remember right. Contrary to popular opinion they weren't written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John either. Their authorship remains a mystery.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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