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acesover
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On 2012-06-13 01:28, The great Gumbini wrote:
Payne don't blame the Scriptures because men misinterpreted them. There has NEVER been in history a time such as now when all these things are coming together. Payne? NEVER. You need to understand this. I can tell you there are more than a few people watching Israel and the surrounding Countries very carefully. These meetings taking place within a couple of weeks are not just for show. There is a real concern over matters that have developed over the past 9 months with Iran and nuclear power. I know it is fun to argue sides on this but when EVIDENCE hits you in the face and all you can do is come back with how people were wrong before I think the issue of a closed mind has to be addressed. The Bible says Israel WILL be attacked by all surrounding Countries. They will invade Israel. God will step in and destroy the attacking Countries. Destroy that is---not simply a victory but a statement. Payne this will happen. When it does I highly recommend after the world stops trembling that all non believers take a second look at God's Word the Bible. In the mean time keep a close eye on the Middle East. If you live in california tune in to 107.9 FM on fridays at 3:00 pm and you will hear a show where you will learn a lot about what is happening and how it pertains to the Bible. It is time to at least keep an eye on the events (and keep the Bible close so you can get answers). Anyone can say "I don't believe" but when things are coming to pass right in front of our eyes then we MUST at least consider what it could mean. And folks lets face it there is something going on in the Middle East and it ain't pretty!


Good magic to all,


Eric


When these things come to pass the paynes of this world will have an explanation, because for them there will never be proof.

We discussed critical thinking a while back. People such as payne have a mental block when it comes to religion no matter what proof is offered. This is a form of denial and is one of the most prevelant faults of people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers. In other words they are biased and cannot accept what is in front of them if it does not agree with their preconceived notions. I asked many times what proof would one need in order to believe in God. I have yet to get any kind of legitimate answer. That should tell you something.
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Proof, to me, would be something more than the hearsay that is generally offered by all major religions.

Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:"

Quote:
Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication — after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.


http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 02:24, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 01:28, The great Gumbini wrote:
Payne don't blame the Scriptures because men misinterpreted them. There has NEVER been in history a time such as now when all these things are coming together. Payne? NEVER. You need to understand this. I can tell you there are more than a few people watching Israel and the surrounding Countries very carefully. These meetings taking place within a couple of weeks are not just for show. There is a real concern over matters that have developed over the past 9 months with Iran and nuclear power. I know it is fun to argue sides on this but when EVIDENCE hits you in the face and all you can do is come back with how people were wrong before I think the issue of a closed mind has to be addressed. The Bible says Israel WILL be attacked by all surrounding Countries. They will invade Israel. God will step in and destroy the attacking Countries. Destroy that is---not simply a victory but a statement. Payne this will happen. When it does I highly recommend after the world stops trembling that all non believers take a second look at God's Word the Bible. In the mean time keep a close eye on the Middle East. If you live in california tune in to 107.9 FM on fridays at 3:00 pm and you will hear a show where you will learn a lot about what is happening and how it pertains to the Bible. It is time to at least keep an eye on the events (and keep the Bible close so you can get answers). Anyone can say "I don't believe" but when things are coming to pass right in front of our eyes then we MUST at least consider what it could mean. And folks lets face it there is something going on in the Middle East and it ain't pretty!


Good magic to all,


Eric


When these things come to pass the paynes of this world will have an explanation, because for them there will never be proof.

We discussed critical thinking a while back. People such as payne have a mental block when it comes to religion no matter what proof is offered. This is a form of denial and is one of the most prevelant faults of people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers. In other words they are biased and cannot accept what is in front of them if it does not agree with their preconceived notions. I asked many times what proof would one need in order to believe in God. I have yet to get any kind of legitimate answer. That should tell you something.


What proof would be needed for Eric to say he's wrong about his whole "end times" idea? Do you think if it doesn't happen in 5 years, or 10, or 20, or 40, the response will be anything other than, "Well, it just hasn't happened YET, but it's getting really close"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 22:46, The great Gumbini wrote:

All of you who "lost faith" (and this may sting a bit) have never had a true RELATIONSHIP with God. Now there is one other possibility and that is you did and do have a relationship with God but for some reason you feel He let you down.


How incredibly arrogant of you to assume that it's not posssible for someone could have spent many years with a "true relationship" with god, but for reason's you either don't understand or refuse to accept, you just dismiss because it doesn't fit into your realm of possibilities. And what about thast "other possibility" that you so generously offer as a way to say perhaps we DID have a relationhip, but we were "let down". Can you give me an example of how someone could be "let down" but a god that we have learned to expect a 50/50 chance of getting what we prayed for from the time we began praying, or losing people we cared about all of out lives. yet we never lost faith? What exactly do you mean by being let down?

Since you have no problem assuming that we either never had a relationship with god, or we were let down, I'll make a broad generalization ("and this may sting a bit")of my own. Often people who show such intolerence for anyone with other views, have problems that go deeper than just a religious belief. It must be that your views are so strong because you are overcompensating for your own wavering beliefs in your faith.

Does that statement anger or hurt you? If it does, perhaps you sould be a little more tolerant in the future agains't those who don't share your absolute certainty on god's intent or who's idea's and views you can't seem to grasp.
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On 2012-06-13 01:58, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 01:37, The great Gumbini wrote:
You are Kam.


Good magic to all,


Eric


That may be so, and I'm happy to be mistaken, I will only learn.

Is it mistaken then to read from Ron's post that he has used the 9/11 tragedy as a reason to no longer believe in God?

Kam


I did not use 9/11 as a reason to no longer believe in God. I was a non-believer long before that. I was pointing out that in the minds of the hijackers, they were carrying out God's will. Their religious convictions were just as strong (if not stronger) than some of the posters here. Do you think they would have carried out a suicide mission if they did NOT fully believe they would be rewarded by Allah with everlasting life and 72 virgins in the afterlife? It's not just rhetoric. The fundamentalist Muslims REALLY believe what they tell us they believe! Just as fundamentalist Christians really believe what they tell us they believe. How many times have we heard of children in this country dying because their Christian parents refused to seek medical help waiting for God to cure their child? Our beliefs inform our decisions. That's why it's so important that we have a rational basis for making decisions. You can't do that when you're living in a bubble of your own religious indoctrinations.

PS - Kam, I never claimed to be, nor am I any sort of religious expert. Far from it. However, does one have to be an expert in Irish mythology in order to not believe in leprechaun claims? Would you say that those who are not well versed in Irish traditions are in no position to disbelieve in leprechauns?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jeff J.
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[quote]On 2012-06-12 21:16, The great Gumbini wrote:

...Show God you want to know Him. How? Simple take some time early in the morning go out side and keep asking Him if He is real to reveal Himself to you. For how long? Until He does.

If God created me, he knows what it takes to reveal himself to me. You say "God created us to love Him and worship Him in a loving way (not a master way)." How sure are you about that? If I have to go out every morning and keep asking him what he already knows, that sounds a little more like a "master way" than the loving way you portray.

Perhaps you believe god is omniscient. If that's the case, it makes no difference if I keep asking him every morning. If that was his plan for me, I'd already be doing it. I have no say in in what an omniscient god has planned out for me since before I was born.
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Hi Ron

I agree with your sentiments above wholeheartedly. It is for exactly those reasons that I adhere to the Bahai religion. I wish you well and apologize for any misunderstandings or assumptions that I made about the content of your posts.

Forums are horrible places to have dialogue. I hope to shake all of you by the hand one day, because you have all helped me to learn so much Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Payne
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On 2012-06-13 01:59, acesover wrote:

OMG. You really have issues. Where did you find this information. I am sure someone somewhere also predicted that Jesus would give them the winning lottery numbers if you asked him. I bet that did not happen either. I do not know who is more delusional those that predicted what you posted, or you for posting it.

You mention a whole bunch of people I never even heard of. I looked up some of them. They were nothing but clerics, not prophets any more than you or I. Their word is not to be taken seriously by anyone much someone who professes to have some knowlede of the bible. If they said just about anything else not involviing religion you would not even care.

Joe from New York said the world would end last Tuesday. How did that work out? He is still wandering around New York but crossed out the date on his sign and changed it to July 5th. I am surprised you did not quote him. Who cares what he or people like him say?


Yet everyone of them had looked at the "signs" interpreted the "prophecies" and come to the conclusion that the end times were upon us. It's no different today. Harold Camping just last year thought that the rapture would occur and the end times begin. It didn't. Why should we take Gumbini's prognostications any more seriously than all the other failed predictions in the past. Especially since they are based around the unremarkable fact that there is unrest in the Middle East.

I'll be the first to admit that "I made a mistake" when Christ come riding in one his great white stallion. But since the odds of that actually occurring are nil it's an admition I won't have to make. The world will eventually end. Our time on it will cease long before the planet does. No doubt we'll do ourselves in some stupid pointless way. But, barring a meteor strike, it will be our own doing and not of any supernatural agency.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2012-06-13 02:45, mastermindreader wrote:
Proof, to me, would be something more than the hearsay that is generally offered by all major religions.

Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:"

Quote:
Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication � after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.


http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm


Smile Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 02:45, mastermindreader wrote:
Proof, to me, would be something more than the hearsay that is generally offered by all major religions.

Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:"

Quote:
Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication — after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.


http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm


Again to vague an answer. You are telling us what proof you would not accept not what proof you would accept.

Would Jesus the Son of God have to apper to you and say Here I am. Do you want me to perform miracle for you? Is that the kind of proof you need? While people like that were discussed in the bible namely Thomas who doubted. When Jesus appeard to him and had him put his hand in the wounds it wasn't until then and only then that Thomas believed...is that the kind of proof you need?
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Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 12:30, acesover wrote:

Would Jesus the Son of God have to apper to you and say Here I am. Do you want me to perform miracle for you? Is that the kind of proof you need? While people like that were discussed in the bible namely Thomas who doubted, when Jesus appeard to him and had him put his hand in the wounds it wasn't until then and only then that Thomas believed...is that the kind of proof you need?



That would be nice. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
acesover
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On 2012-06-13 12:31, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 12:30, acesover wrote:

Would Jesus the Son of God have to apper to you and say Here I am. Do you want me to perform miracle for you? Is that the kind of proof you need? While people like that were discussed in the bible namely Thomas who doubted, when Jesus appeard to him and had him put his hand in the wounds it wasn't until then and only then that Thomas believed...is that the kind of proof you need?



That would be nice. Smile


That is not an answer. Try and stay on track here.

I will ask again because it seems like you don't understand the question. What kind of proof would you need? I did not ask what would be nice. Read the words, stay focused here.
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Pakar Ilusi
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What proof?

God talking to me right now. Himself. In Person and in English.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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"If God created me, he knows what it takes to reveal himself to me."

Why in the world would God want to come to YOU?
God owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. He is GOD.

I'm really surprised so many here cant' understand that.



On a smaller scale, it's like asking, why don't Obama come eat lunch with me today. Smile


Tom
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2012-06-13 12:53, TomBoleware wrote:
"If God created me, he knows what it takes to reveal himself to me."

Why in the world would God want to come to YOU?
God owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. He is GOD.

I'm really surprised so many here cant' understand that.



On a smaller scale, it's like asking, why don't Obama come eat lunch with me today. Smile


Tom


Well okay, then don't ask a bearded guy to tell me to worship Him either.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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On 2012-06-13 12:30, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 02:45, mastermindreader wrote:
Proof, to me, would be something more than the hearsay that is generally offered by all major religions.

Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:"

Quote:
Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication — after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.


http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm


Again to vague an answer. You are telling us what proof you would not accept not what proof you would accept.

Would Jesus the Son of God have to apper to you and say Here I am. Do you want me to perform miracle for you? Is that the kind of proof you need? While people like that were discussed in the bible namely Thomas who doubted. When Jesus appeard to him and had him put his hand in the wounds it wasn't until then and only then that Thomas believed...is that the kind of proof you need?


You are using hearsay (the doubting Thomas story, not written until long after the events it describes) to prove other hearsays (the miracles described in the Gospels, all of which were likewise written long after the events they purport to describe).

That is what is known as double hearsay and is not evidential of anything. No book, including the Bible is "self-proving."

Have you ever read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason?" You can find the entire text at the link I provided above.

He suggests a much more simple proof of God than that provided in second hand "revelations" written by men. And he suggests that men can experience that revelation first hand simply by beholding God's creation. Don't make the mistake of lumping me in with atheists. I'm not.

I do not require a proof of God as I already have one that is satisfactory to me. As I said, the revelation of God is self evident in His creation. That's it.

Beyond that I know nothing about Him. I just do the best I can and hope for the best.

Good thoughts,

Bob
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On 2012-06-13 12:45, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
What proof?

God talking to me right now. Himself. In Person and in English.


Well that is an answer. However I do not see that happening just yet. However in End Times of which I have no idea when it will occur God wil appear in person to all.

I am not positive that He will not appear to you personally to convert you to a believer even though he loves you. But you must remember because He loves you he gave you free will to make your own decisions. However if he did appear to you inperson, how would you know it was really God? Sooner or later you have to take that leap of faith. What if it was mstermindreader dressed up in a God costume? If he then took it off and said I fooled you would you lose your belief? Yet for that brief moment you believed. If so and again you say I don't believe, you never believed in the first place. Which proves there is nothing that can convince you is there? The only thing that can make you believe in God is your own Free Will.

You really don't want proof. By your own free will you are satisfied with what you have now. Good for you. As they say "enjoy".

Good luck in accomplishing your hopes and desires.
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Quote:
Why in the world would God want to come to YOU?
God owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. He is GOD.


"Hi, (Deity) here. Just wanted to say it's important enough to me that you believe in me that if you do it I'll give you a cloud and a golden mandolin, and if you don't I'll throw you in a pit of fire and let an ex-employee poke you with a sharp stick. Forever.
But, other than that, I can't be bothered to do any legwork."


*Disclaimer* The preceeding was satire towards the quoted post, in no way intended as an argument for, or against, any belief system.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
acesover
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Is it really that difficult for people to see that they must accept God through their Free Will?

It would mean nothing if he made you accept Him.

It is like giving you a piece of marble and asking you to create a masterpiece. But instead of using a chisel and sculptor tools we set up a computer system that does all the work for you and carves out a statue. All you had to do was turn on a switch and it was done for you. Is that really a masterpiece? Well that is the arguement that many give here. Why doesn'tGod just make me do it as he is God? Because He loved you so much He gave you free will to determine your own destiny. It is really quite simple.
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2012-06-13 13:38, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 12:45, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
What proof?

God talking to me right now. Himself. In Person and in English.


Well that is an answer. However I do not see that happening just yet. However in End Times of which I have no idea when it will occur God wil appear in person to all.

I am not positive that He will not appear to you personally to convert you to a believer even though he loves you. But you must remember because He loves you he gave you free will to make your own decisions. However if he did appear to you inperson, how would you know it was really God? Sooner or later you have to take that leap of faith. What if it was mstermindreader dressed up in a God costume? If he then took it off and said I fooled you would you lose your belief? Yet for that brief moment you believed. If so and again you say I don't believe, you never believed in the first place. Which proves there is nothing that can convince you is there? The only thing that can make you believe in God is your own Free Will.

You really don't want proof. By your own free will you are satisfied with what you have now. Good for you. As they say "enjoy".

Good luck in accomplishing your hopes and desires.


Wow, talk about putting words in my mouth... Smile

I say that God doesn't exist.

If you can't prove to me He does, I say He doesn't.

Right here, right now. Meet me... God.

Impostors?

He is God, He should be able to make me know He is God and not an impostor.

If He can't even do that, when He can do everything else, he ain't God.

Good luck to you too.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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