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acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 13:57, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 02:24, acesover wrote:

I asked many times what proof would one need in order to believe in God. I have yet to get any kind of legitimate answer. That should tell you something.



I've answered that question. Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean I didn't provide you with one. But in case you missed it my answer is thus.

"When you decide exactly what it would take for you to believe in Zeus, Ra, Odin or any one of the multitude of gods that have been worshiped in other cultures and other times then you will know what it takes for me to believe in yours. To me your god is no different than any other. So when you discover that one thing that can make you believe in Zeus as fervently as you believe in Yahweh then you'll have your answer


Oh my aren't we clever? Give me a break with your what you feel is a clever answer. It is a dodge and you know it.

What would make me decide has nothing to do with what what would make you decide. Clever but no cigar. However if that were true, with all the information you have which is the same that I have you would believe already. So by your explanation you are already a believer unless your post is just a lot of made up payne stuff. Oh yeah, wait, it is.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2012-06-13 15:23, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 13:52, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 13:48, acesover wrote:
Is it really that difficult for people to see that they must accept God through their Free Will?

It would mean nothing if he made you accept Him.

It is like giving you a piece of marble and asking you to create a masterpiece. But instead of using a chisel and sculptor tools we set up a computer system that does all the work for you and carves out a statue. All you had to do was turn on a switch and it was done for you. Is that really a masterpiece? Well that is the arguement that many give here. Why doesn'tGod just make me do it as he is God? Because He loved you so much He gave you free will to determine your own destiny. It is really quite simple.


He loves you so much that he gave you a chance to go to Hell?

Smile


And some choose it.

If He gave you no choice what would that be like? Take responsibility for your own actions. Grow up. Blame no one but yourself for your situation. You had choices and you made them. Now live and die with those choices. Simple as that.


Hmm, too bad for Gandhi. He was such a nice man, did some good things too...

Well...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
critter
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I'd venture that the only reason these religion threads have managed to survive so long is because we've managed to maintain a civil tone, but...
:)
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2012-06-13 15:34, critter wrote:
I'd venture that the only reason these religion threads have managed to survive so long is because we've managed to maintain a civil tone, but...
:)


Only God knows... Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Slide
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"You can try all the "stings" you want but it will have no effect on me because of my relationship with God. I don't mean to be mean with anyone about this I simply want you to know God really does exist and He will reveal Himself to you if you really want that."

And you can't tell a schizophrenic that the voices they hear are not real.

Latching on to a meditative device such as god can help the mind refocus itself. It is a common practice of many religions and meditation practices. It doesn't even matter what it is. It is like an athlete who visualizes their golf or batting swing. Visualization can help actually create synapses in the brain that improve performance. Bringing your problems to an imaginary being can help with coping of loss and difficult times. Those who consult on how to grow rich suggest staring at the things you want to possess: a fancy new car, a beautiful wife, and mansion. And the focus and visualization help achieve success, help train the brain to stay focused. Believe in a god is exactly like this. It becomes a real physical presence just as in Zen mediation where you are to focus your attention in your groin to build concentration. The fact is any thing can work: a believe in god, meditating on your navel, contemplating the porsche.

The difference is the guy contemplating the porsche doesn't try and stop me from buying birth control.
satellite23
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I believe in God. Just saying.

Here is an example I myself came up with that would help prove my point:

Let's say I walk down the street with a yellow shirt on. I take a nice long stroll, but nobody sees me with my yellow shirt. When I get back home, I change into a red shirt and tell my fiends that I walked around with a yellow shirt on. However, they don't believe me because their senses tell them something different, and they never have any proof that I was wearing a yellow shirt. Therefore, they don't believe that I ever wore a yellow shirt.

So, that story is insignificant compared to God/no God. Who cares if I wore a yellow shirt or red shirt?

That is not the point, though. The point is that just because there is no proof that something happened/exists doesn't mean that is does happen/exist. I really wore a yellow shirt, even though there is no proof that I did!

The same argument can be applies to many things. For instance: love. There is no physical proof of it, but nearly everybody believes in it. Why?

Things like love have to be put into place by something that hasn't been explained yet. Maybe it's a chemical reaction, maybe it's in our minds, or maybe a higher being is allowing us to experience it. No matter what the explanation, I believe in God.

Also, for those of you who believe in the big bang theory, combustion, etc: I'm not an expert on those topics, but I also have an opinion on them. How can something be created out of nothing? It can't. There has to be a higher being that created the concept of nothing to begin with and likewise turn it into something. Yes, I believe that God created the concept of nothing--therefore, people cannot argue that God was created from nothing. No--he created nothing.

I'm not going to rule out the big bang theory or evolution. In fact, I tend to lean towards those theories as opposed to the Genesis creation stories that I have been taught in the full 17 years of my life. It's really hard to doubt science.

What I'm saying is that science and religion can both be right. God created the big bang, and all the creatures that came out of the bang are constantly evolving to reach the highest point of spiritual fulfillment.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 15:30, acesover wrote:

What would make me decide has nothing to do with what what would make you decide. Clever but no cigar. However if that were true, with all the information you have which is the same that I have you would believe already.



No, it's readily apparent that I have accessed MORE information than you have. If you possessed the same information that I have you too would now be an atheist Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Pakar Ilusi
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I call forth The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Bah! Your God stands no chance!
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
critter
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FYI,
We prefer to call them "people with schizophrenia." It's generally passe to refer to a person as a disease.
Though I have often done this myself out of old habits.
This is just for general informational purposes.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 14:12, Slide wrote:
"Because I think deep down we love the idea of someone loving us the way only God could."

Yeah...I love my kids like that. I make them worship the ground I walk on and if they do anything wrong I plan on blow torching their feet and water boarding them for the rest of eternity. That's how much I love my kids.


Have you given them reason to love you? Or do you just demand they do so? Are you worthy of their love or are you just their father? Remember they grow up and will form their own opinion of you from your actions. If they love you as grown ups you were probably a good father. However if they merely toloerate you because you because you are their father...not such a good job on your part. Smile
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acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 15:33, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 15:23, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 13:52, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 13:48, acesover wrote:
Is it really that difficult for people to see that they must accept God through their Free Will?

It would mean nothing if he made you accept Him.

It is like giving you a piece of marble and asking you to create a masterpiece. But instead of using a chisel and sculptor tools we set up a computer system that does all the work for you and carves out a statue. All you had to do was turn on a switch and it was done for you. Is that really a masterpiece? Well that is the arguement that many give here. Why doesn'tGod just make me do it as he is God? Because He loved you so much He gave you free will to determine your own destiny. It is really quite simple.


He loves you so much that he gave you a chance to go to Hell?

Smile


And some choose it.

If He gave you no choice what would that be like? Take responsibility for your own actions. Grow up. Blame no one but yourself for your situation. You had choices and you made them. Now live and die with those choices. Simple as that.


Hmm, too bad for Gandhi. He was such a nice man, did some good things too...

Well...


Are you comparing yourself to Gandhi? If not what point are you trying to make?
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 15:38, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
I call forth The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Bah! Your God stands no chance!


Sorry but the great Cthulhu not only ate your weak Flying Spaghetti Monster of a god but also consumed the AntiPasta whose arrival was to mark the end times wherein we all had to go to middle eastern restaurants and consume unhealthy amounts of falafel
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Slide
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"How can something be created out of nothing? It can't. There has to be a higher being that created the concept of nothing to begin with and likewise turn it into something. Yes, I believe that God created the concept of nothing--therefore, people cannot argue that God was created from nothing. No--he created nothing. "

Why couldn't the universe have created nothing?

You are correct that just because something hasn't been proved, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And a belief in god is a theory, one of many. Some are more scientific, some are less. But all it is, is a theory, it is not proof. Many would say, including me, it is not a very good theory, full of holes and requires a childlike degree of naiveté .

And I would say that atheists as a whole have no problems with you believing anything you want, if it helps you make it through the night.

Where the objection comes in is when you try and take your (in my opinion) lame theory and use that to control people, to change laws that restrict freedom, to use as an excuse to picket service men's funerals like the Westboro Baptist Church, or recommend that you beat your children if they show any signs of being gay, to prevent a loving couple from marrying, as an excuse to pollute the earth because after all its the end of days, and on and on and on. That is why some people so despise religious people and get so angry when people proselytize
Slide
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"
Have you given them reason to love you? Or do you just demand they do so? Are you worthy of their love or are you just their father? Remember they grow up and will form their own opinion of you from your actions."

Oh, I just demand it and I give them no reason to love me other than the threat of blow torch and water boarding for eternity if they don't. No, no need to be worthy of their love; I created them, that is all they need to know. hmmm....

"However if they merely toloerate you because you because you are their father." Yep, just like a good catholic.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 15:38, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 15:30, acesover wrote:

What would make me decide has nothing to do with what what would make you decide. Clever but no cigar. However if that were true, with all the information you have which is the same that I have you would believe already.



No, it's readily apparent that I have accessed MORE information than you have. If you possessed the same information that I have you too would now be an atheist Smile


So then your religious beliefs or disbeliefs are in a state of flux and keep changing as you gain more information? Sooner or later you will know everything and be all knowing as that as what some men want but cannot never attain.

You asked me what would make me believe in your zeus and his buddies and I told you but because you did not like the answer you put in qualifiers that you have more information than me. Well the exact opposite is true, as I have more info than you as I am sure I do, because I believe in God and you don't.

That logic of yours (more info) is non ending. Nice try but it does not work. Go read another book,or google something and catch up. It gets back to the critical thinking with the knowledge one posesses without bias and that is where you fall short... GOD AHEAD, as soon as you see that sign you must stop because you are biased and do not want that. So no amoount of knowledge will ever change you. Good luck with that.
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Payne
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On 2012-06-13 16:06, acesover wrote:

That logic of yours (more info) is non ending. Nice try but it does not work. Go read another book,or google something and catch up. It gets back to the critical thinking with the knowledge one posesses without bias and that is where you fall short... GOD AHEAD, as soon as you see that sign you must stop because you are biased and do not want that. So no amoount of knowledge will ever change you. Good luck with that.



I'm not the biased one here. Why do you think so many atheists study the world's religions. Like theists we too are looking for answers and ever seeking the "truth". But unlike some theists we are open to new ideas and evidence. We evaluate the new information and adjust our world view accordingly. Unlike other un-named individuals on this board who have decreed that they already know all the answers and no amount of evidence will ever change their minds.

Quote:
On 2012-06-01 19:24, acesover wrote:

Let me make it simple. I am not going to change my faith. I feel that what I believe I can say I know.

MY FAITH AND WHAT I BELIEVE MAKES ME CONFIDENT THAT I KNOW. Maybe I am wrong but I am not about to say'MAYBE" I am wrong because my faith is so strong that I know I am right just as the others know they are right.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

Maybe I am wrong but iin my mind I am sure I am right. I do not see why you cannot see my point of view. I do no mean agree that I am right, just my philosphy on this. That abeing that I know I am right.


I'm willing (and have) changed my opinion on many things when presented with new, verifiable evidence. So who exactly is the critical thinker here. The one that admits that he'll change his mind if given sufficent evidence to do so. Or the one who KNOWS simply because it "feels" right and refuse to even consider that they might be wrong?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Now will anyone whose opinions about religion have changed as the result of anything that has been set forth in this thread, please raise their hands?

Anyone? Buehler? Anyone?
acesover
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On 2012-06-13 16:36, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 16:06, acesover wrote:

That logic of yours (more info) is non ending. Nice try but it does not work. Go read another book,or google something and catch up. It gets back to the critical thinking with the knowledge one posesses without bias and that is where you fall short... GOD AHEAD, as soon as you see that sign you must stop because you are biased and do not want that. So no amoount of knowledge will ever change you. Good luck with that.



I'm not the biased one here. Why do you think so many atheists study the world's religions. Like theists we too are looking for answers and ever seeking the "truth". But unlike some theists we are open to new ideas and evidence. We evaluate the new information and adjust our world view accordingly. Unlike other un-named individuals on this board who have decreed that they already know all the answers and no amount of evidence will ever change their minds.

Quote:
On 2012-06-01 19:24, acesover wrote:

Let me make it simple. I am not going to change my faith. I feel that what I believe I can say I know.

MY FAITH AND WHAT I BELIEVE MAKES ME CONFIDENT THAT I KNOW. Maybe I am wrong but I am not about to say'MAYBE" I am wrong because my faith is so strong that I know I am right just as the others know they are right.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

Maybe I am wrong but iin my mind I am sure I am right. I do not see why you cannot see my point of view. I do no mean agree that I am right, just my philosphy on this. That abeing that I know I am right.


I'm willing (and have) changed my opinion on many things when presented with new, verifiable evidence. So who exactly is the critical thinker here. The one that admits that he'll change his mind if given sufficent evidence to do so. Or the one who KNOWS simply because it "feels" right and refuse to even consider that they might be wrong?


You make a very valid point. However there comes a point when the evidence is so overwhelming and points you in a direction that you are so positive nothing or no one can change your mind. That statement of course contradicts what I say about critical thinking..I will have to get back to you on that, ha ha Smile .

Payne, When I say "I KNOW" I am only stating what millions of others know to be their truth which differs from mine. I suppose all of us who believe in A Supreme Being believe we are right, or as I say, just to show how positive I am, I say, I know, rather than say I believe. Just semantics and stopping someone from coming back and saying yes, you believe, but do you know? So I avoid that by sayign I know. Just a defense mode.

I have said here several times that I am not a missionary and am not trying to convert anyone. It would be great if everyone believed in the same things and had the same ideals etc. but we don't. I have to say to us.,GET OVER IT. As long as you are not hurting me or mine and I am not hurting you or yours all is fine. However in this world we have zealots which we can seen for example from the Middle East.

It is rather strange or coinsidence or possibly prophecy that that is where all the problems are at this time, well not all, but a good portion of them and the most likely place to trigger something horrific. And what is the biggest problem there? Religious beliefs. It has been said in the bible that this is where the end of times will start and it looks to be right. That in itself does not make all the other things in the bible true, but I believe they are and while I also believe the bible, it cannot be taken literally but has to be taken as to the time it was written and the conditions at that time and the lost translation or mistranslation through time. Just cya here want to cover all my bases ,ha ha.

I would go on to giive my interputation of Adam and EVe and the Tree of knowledge etc and I do not know if an apple was involved or not but it was a book written for the people at that time who were not educated and the examples had to be simple and understandable tothem. Not unlike fairy tales with a lesson in them. OK enough for now.

The bad thing about a topic such as this is that one gets upset when he reads someones post and it contrdicts everything one believes in so strongly that it sometimes triggers a bad response...been there done that. This is longer than I had planned. The end of this post.
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acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 16:55, mastermindreader wrote:
Now will anyone whose opinions about religion have changed as the result of anything that has been set forth in this thread, please raise their hands?

Anyone? Buehler? Anyone?


Ok I changed. I am an athiest. I cannot understand those bead mumbling catholics, and those fish eaters on those special days, kneeling and gettin gup an down during their services. Whats with all that? They are just plain weird. Just kidding. Smile

You are right in your post. By that I assume you mean that all of this posting will not change anyones mind. It may expose us to how others think and why. And that is a good thing.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
TomBoleware
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Nope not a change. Hard to change other people, they have to do that on their own.

One last thought from me,

According to a recent Gallup poll, more than Ninety percent of Americans believe in God. How can this 8/6/7, probably more like 5, percent of the people say all the others are wrong? Certainly this few has no real proof, else more would believe it.
Surely the least bit of real solid evidence would have already made the nightly news.

I haven't seen any evidence here, or on the news, to not believe along with the others.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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