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kambiz
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On 2012-06-20 03:01, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
First of all, you are starting off with an argument from scripture. Just because there are some facts contained in the Bible (such as places that exist or existed), doesn't make the entire book true. There may or may not have been a person named Jesus, but for the sake of argument, let's say there was. That's a far cry from saying that person went around performing miracles. As far as the "original sin", you are taking a leap of faith that one act that happened thousands of years ago caused this god to condemn all future mankind. If there IS a god, I'd like to think he/she is a little better than that.

I don't know what "Baha'u'llah" is, so when I asked you "what makes you think that evolution is ONLY an "observable" theory" really makes no sense to me.

Can you explain it to me in a way that doesn't involve a religious belief? In other words, what part of "evolution" (in non-religious talk) were you referring to in your original post? Thanks.


Jeff it is plain and obvious you do not read my answers to your questions fully, or there are serious miscommunication issues between us..... I just don't think I can help you on these matters as I get the feeling your mind is totally closed to such concepts as the one I just presented Smile

Good day to you sir Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Slide
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"Just a quick heads up on the old testament. eatiing pork bck then was not a good idea due to the way it was cooked jusgt as today one must be careful to cook it correctlyor you can become violently ill and sometimes die. Of course this is true for a lot of foods but more so from pork. "

You really didn't answer the question Aces.

Orthodox jews today don't eat pork, not because of the health issues because they are forbidden by the bible. They use separate plates for dairy. They have all sorts of restrictions outlined by god in the Torah. Why aren't christians under the same edict?
acesover
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On 2012-06-20 01:00, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
There is no need to even go into the Old Testament. If you want to discuss cruelty, there are gems everywhere. One of my favorites is Exodus 21:20-21. - "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

The kinder, gentler God of the New Testament says it's okay to beat your slave as long as he stays alive for a couple days. If he dies, the punishment was usually a small fine. Often people think I'm wrong for considering myself more moral than the god of the Bible, but since I don't condone slavery, much less how much to charge for slaves or how to treat them, nor have I ever condoned the killing of innocent children simply because they were disobedient, I disagree. People can say "It's God's way", or "we can't question His motives", or one of my favorites, he is too complicated to understand". That's BS that was drilled into our minds as children. I firmly believe that most people with even a bit of morality wouldn't even consider doing most things that Gods word in the Bible considers just fine.

Don't be ashamed that you are more moral than the people who wrote that book supposedly being the word of God. Be proud that wouldn't do the things the Bible condones.

O

OK lets read the passage. <quote> "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. <end quote> It says that if a man beats his servant and the servant dies he shall surely be punished. It says nothing about how long it will take.

However if the man lives and does not die he will not be punished. Everyone will die eventually. The day or two is nothing more than stating that if the servant lives and does not die as a result of the beating then man is not responsible for the servants death, as everyone dies. But if he died because of the beating the man will be punished it says that in the first passage. Read it again.

So maybe you should pick another favorite. Smile
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acesover
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On 2012-06-20 08:50, Slide wrote:
"Just a quick heads up on the old testament. eatiing pork bck then was not a good idea due to the way it was cooked jusgt as today one must be careful to cook it correctlyor you can become violently ill and sometimes die. Of course this is true for a lot of foods but more so from pork. "

You really didn't answer the question Aces.

Orthodox jews today don't eat pork, not because of the health issues because they are forbidden by the bible. They use separate plates for dairy. They have all sorts of restrictions outlined by god in the Torah. Why aren't christians under the same edict?


Maybe because christians do not follow the Torah. Smile

Animals that chewed their cud were considered unclean at one time. Times have changed but obviously the writings in the old testament did not. However in the new testament there are changes. This may help to clarify it: http://www.ucg.org/booklet/what-does-bib......istinct/
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The great Gumbini
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Yes once again it's NOT what is written but how it is received by someone that seems to cause so much misunderstanding. There is a very good rule I'd like to share with everyone when reading Scriptures. If something seems odd or hard to understand STUDY it very well until you get an answer. Sometimes the use of the words back then were more meaningful then today. For example today people name their children by how cute a name is or after a celebrity. In Biblical times children were named by their actions or events that took place relating to their birth and even today I have heard that some Jewish families will wait days to see how their new born is acting before they name him or her. I brought up earlier how the words "faith" and "belief" were used in Biblical times. What is still the most fascinating thing about the Bible is how the prophecies are coming true even today. The changed lives that the Lord is leading people to live. This is evidence and proof.

The Bahai faith believes that there were several messengers that came at different times that were suited for the people at that time. However when it come to Muhammad their is a problem in that he talks against Jesus and His teachings. Messengers of God do not talk against but rather confirm what the others have said. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The argument is set forth that people did not understand what Jesus was saying and was misquoted. This simply is not the case. The Bible is a continuous thread that is amazing in that so many authors in such a time span could have laid out such a continuity in it's message. But then again it is the Word of God so what would you expect.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Eric, can you provide a quote from the Quran where Muhammad talks against Jesus?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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"Maybe because christians do not follow the Torah. " so christians don't follow the old testiment? That is news to me. So do you believe then that the old testiment/torah is NOT the word of God, then? I'm confused. Was that a false god? did god change his mind?
LobowolfXXX
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Per the Bible, he changed the rules. Are you a "false parent" if your child has an 8:00 curfew one year and a 9:00 curfew the next year?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Slide
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"The biblical position is clear. Distinctions between clean and unclean meats existed long before the New Testament was written; they were followed by the leaders and other members of the early Church; and they will still apply at the time of Christ's return in the future, when He will enforce them. Therefore they are clearly to be observed today as well by members of the modern Church, which "keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ""

From your link aces. I read that as saying that christians should follow the dietary restrictions found in the Torah. So do you?
kambiz
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On 2012-06-20 12:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Per the Bible, he changed the rules. Are you a "false parent" if your child has an 8:00 curfew one year and a 9:00 curfew the next year?


Hey Lobo, your inspiring me Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
acesover
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On 2012-06-20 12:13, Slide wrote:
"Maybe because christians do not follow the Torah. " so christians don't follow the old testiment? That is news to me. So do you believe then that the old testiment/torah is NOT the word of God, then? I'm confused. Was that a false god? did god change his mind?


Christians follow the Old testament except, and this is a big exception where it conflicts with the New Testament. While this may seem to some as double talk especially to those who want to believe otherwise, many of these differences as some people see them are in translation or in they way they are interputed.

So while you may feel that my statement was to general when I said and I quote here, " Maybe because christians do not follow the Torah. Perhaps I should have added to the very letter, and it would have explained it better.

Jesus taught from the Old Testament and you must remember who and when he was teaching. Remember the times. There were no cars, planes, internet, etc so please do not try and inturpert what was taught by Jesus then in order to make it logical to you now. Consider the times and the education and knowledge poscessed by these people at the time of His teaching. Would it make sense to these people if Jesus mentioned Stealth Bombers or would it make more sense if He mentioned fire from the sky?

Obviously you know the New Testament came after the Old testament and is about the life of Jesus and took approximatel 50 or so years to write by several authors. While most of the Old Testament was handed down to Moses from God. Do not confuse the Old and New testament as one smooth transition of thought from the old to the new. The Torah while for the most part is the Old testament it is not laid out in the same order as the Old testament. With the changes of the order of books it makes the transation into the New Testament easier to understand and more logical.

This topic makes for a very long winded discussion and does not lend itself to this medium (typing on a forum). It is much easier for participants to voice their opinion live when what was said is still fresh in the minds of those who hear it. Having said that I feel I cannot do my end of this discussion justice in this format so I will bow out. I will end by saying, BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.
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Payne
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On 2012-06-20 12:06, kambiz wrote:
Eric, can you provide a quote from the Quran where Muhammad talks against Jesus?

Kam


I think it was either an episode of south Park or Celebrity Death Match
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Slide
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"Christians follow the Old testament except, and this is a big exception where it conflicts with the New Testament"

So god wrote two sets of rules? and why drop the pork restriction after Jesus was crucified? Was he planning a series of Jesus Rib joints?

50 years? Try at least 1000 years. It is well documented by bible scholars that much of the bible was rewritten by the monk scribes and has been added to, rewritten, and changed constantly through the 1300's.
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"Per the Bible, he changed the rules. Are you a "false parent" if your child has an 8:00 curfew one year and a 9:00 curfew the next year?"

Why would a deity change the rules. Perhaps he has changed the rules again, if he can change the rule so willy nilly. HAHAHA.

Man, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

How do you know he hasn't changed the rules again? My Darwin was his new change of rules.
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So if he has changed the rules, are all the rules changed? where did jesus say " go and eat pork".

Are the 10 commandments now changed as well. This is a pretty inconsistant god you got on your hands. Can't seem to make up his mind on a ham sandwich
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"Jesus taught from the Old Testament and you must remember who and when he was teaching. Remember the times. There were no cars, planes, internet, etc so please do not try and inturpert what was taught by Jesus then in order to make it logical to you now."

So you are saying that the bible is not to be taken literally then. It is not the unchanging word of god but was written to appeal to an uneducated nomadic tribe. in words that they can understand and is open to interpretation. Not to be taken as "gospel" so to speak.

I'm learning all sorts of things.
acesover
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On 2012-06-20 14:44, Slide wrote:
"Christians follow the Old testament except, and this is a big exception where it conflicts with the New Testament"

So god wrote two sets of rules? and why drop the pork restriction after Jesus was crucified? Was he planning a series of Jesus Rib joints?

50 years? Try at least 1000 years. It is well documented by bible scholars that much of the bible was rewritten by the monk scribes and has been added to, rewritten, and changed constantly through the 1300's.


You know it is people like you that make me just have to post. If you read my post I said the New testmant and it took around 50 or so years to write it. stretching it for some people who say other wise maybe 100 years. But 1,000 years, you are completely lost in this topic. It is way over your head. Don't talk aboaut translations because you are showing you rignorance on this topic. Do you even know how many people are responsible for writing the bible, not the stroy you are comiing up with about monks writing it. Jeeez...give me a break. It will probably be changed further by some people who think they know what the original authors meant. So lets stretch it to 2,000 years. Yea...WOW. Joe down the street just thought of something new and now has his own version add another year. Seriously what is wrong with you?
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acesover
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On 2012-06-20 14:55, Slide wrote:
"Jesus taught from the Old Testament and you must remember who and when he was teaching. Remember the times. There were no cars, planes, internet, etc so please do not try and inturpert what was taught by Jesus then in order to make it logical to you now."

So you are saying that the bible is not to be taken literally then. It is not the unchanging word of god but was written to appeal to an uneducated nomadic tribe. in words that they can understand and is open to interpretation. Not to be taken as "gospel" so to speak.

I'm learning all sorts of things.


I doubt you are learning anything as you have a closed mind on this topic.

I am definitely saying that every passage in the old testament is not to be taken literally. Some yes some no. If you were a believer you might have a chance to understand, but as I imagine by your posts you are not, and are just here to show how smart you think you are, you have no chance of ever knowing. You are blinded by your bias. You like it that way so enjoy. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. But try and post without being saracastic and making light on ones religious beliefs just because you have none. In some parts of the world such comments can cause you seriouis bodily harm. However not from a christian. Try talking in that tone to a devout muslim.
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Slide
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Aces, please read "Misquoting Jesus" by famed scholar Bart Ehrman. Or any of the books Elaine Pegels. For your information, I spend nearly 10 years studying religions and my library at one time contained over 100 texts on chritianity, spirtuality, buddhism, etc.

Far from being lost in the topic, I would say your myopic view of christianity, circumscribed by the teachings of the Catholic church have given you a very narrow view on biblical scholorship.
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"In some parts of the world such comments can cause you seriouis bodily harm. However not from a christian."

Ever heard of the Spanish Inquistion? Ever heard of the salem witch trials, ever heard of the holocaust (which by the way, your pope never spoke out against) ? Please, dude, you are so blinded by your faith that you miss the truth.
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