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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 14:58, S2000magician wrote:
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On 2012-06-22 12:47, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 12:08, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:30, mastermindreader wrote:
The only problem I have with "strong atheism" is that I find it intellectually indefensible.

And "strong theism" isn't?

Well, I was asked about the difference between atheism and agnosticism. But since you ask, there have been many well reasoned arguments in favor of theism. The works of CS Lewis come to mind.

Before I got married - some 33 years ago - my wife wanted me to read Lewis' Mere Christianity, and I did.

When I'd finished it I had this uneasy feeling that there was a flaw in Lewis' argument. I didn't object to his conclusions, but there was something missing; he'd overlooked a step. I don't know what it was, and I didn't go to the trouble of rereading the book and mapping it out (not much to be gained by doing that), but whatever it was, it was subtle (and, I suspect, would fly past most people; as I say, it only gave me an uneasy feeling).

I agree that CS Lewis is a good example, but even his best argument is flawed.


I agree. To me, the flaw is where he just seems to jump from his conclusion that there must be a God to the conclusion that it therefore must be the God of Christianity. His argument for theism, though, in my opinion, very well reasoned.

Good thoughts,

Bob
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 15:08, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 14:58, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 12:47, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 12:08, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:30, mastermindreader wrote:
The only problem I have with "strong atheism" is that I find it intellectually indefensible.

And "strong theism" isn't?

Well, I was asked about the difference between atheism and agnosticism. But since you ask, there have been many well reasoned arguments in favor of theism. The works of CS Lewis come to mind.

Before I got married - some 33 years ago - my wife wanted me to read Lewis' Mere Christianity, and I did.

When I'd finished it I had this uneasy feeling that there was a flaw in Lewis' argument. I didn't object to his conclusions, but there was something missing; he'd overlooked a step. I don't know what it was, and I didn't go to the trouble of rereading the book and mapping it out (not much to be gained by doing that), but whatever it was, it was subtle (and, I suspect, would fly past most people; as I say, it only gave me an uneasy feeling).

I agree that CS Lewis is a good example, but even his best argument is flawed.

I agree. To me, the flaw is where he just seems to jump from his conclusion that there must be a God to the conclusion that it therefore must be the God of Christianity.

That could well be it. As I still own a copy, I should reread it (in my copious free time) and see.
R.S.
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On 2012-06-22 11:00, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
Tom,
At one time, didn't you "know for sure" that Santa Claus existed?

Ron



Oh I'm sure I probably did believe in Santa at Christmas time way back then.
But that didn't last long and even as a child I knew there was a big difference in the two.
Most adults (and children too) compare Santa to Elves, Superman, and other Storybook Characters, not God.

Tom


Santa Claus is portrayed as a REAL being who knows who's good or bad, and who visits houses in the night and delivers presents (and eats the cookies and drinks the milk that's left for him). The kids believe this and the parents encourage that belief. It doesn't matter if it's a short-lived belief, it's a (strongly held) belief nonetheless.

But aside from that, I'm sure there were other things you "knew for sure" at various times in your life, which later turned out to be false. That's not a knock on you - as humans we are simply susceptible to faulty reasoning. Me, you, everybody. And as all us "magicians" here know, magic capitalizes on the ability of people to be fooled ("I "knew for sure" that he had just 1 ball under that cup"!)


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 19:13, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 11:00, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
Tom,
At one time, didn't you "know for sure" that Santa Claus existed?

Ron



Oh I'm sure I probably did believe in Santa at Christmas time way back then.
But that didn't last long and even as a child I knew there was a big difference in the two.
Most adults (and children too) compare Santa to Elves, Superman, and other Storybook Characters, not God.

Tom


Santa Claus is portrayed as a REAL being who knows who's good or bad, and who visits houses in the night and delivers presents (and eats the cookies and drinks the milk that's left for him). The kids believe this and the parents encourage that belief. It doesn't matter if it's a short-lived belief, it's a (strongly held) belief nonetheless.

But aside from that, I'm sure there were other things you "knew for sure" at various times in your life, which later turned out to be false. That's not a knock on you - as humans we are simply susceptible to faulty reasoning. Me, you, everybody. And as all us "magicians" here know, magic capitalizes on the ability of people to be fooled ("I "knew for sure" that he had just 1 ball under that cup"!)


Ron


Let me understand something here. You say It is a short lived belief and also in your opinion a strong one. However you are leaving out the most important element of this analogy and that is you are talking about 4 year olds as compared to adults. Some of the believers you are talking about cannot count to 10 and still poop their pants. In other words your analogy of believing in Santa Claus and believing in God is meaningless.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
The great Gumbini
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The ONLY reason this thread is still alive and kicking is because JESUS is in it. Jesus said it would be HIS name that would cause this kind of going back and forth. You see Jesus is the Son of God and that just rubs some wrong. But why? I mean what did He do that upsets so many? Why is it ALL religions place their gods up against The God of the Scriptures? I venture to say if you replaced in this thread the God of the Scriptures and Jesus with ANY other prophet or whatever it would not last long at all. But once again Jesus---oh that name! It just gets to people. And once again the Bible says it would. While you rail AGAINST God's Word you show it to be true!

I've often said without God there would be no atheists. The very existence of an atheist is because of God. The Psalmist wrote 700 years before Christ---"...and what is His Sons name?" Now we know. And what did His Son do? He died so we may live. Why is that offensive? Talk about all the other religions and faiths. But what do they have that the Scriptures don't? NOTHING. Now what does Christianity have that all others don't? JESUS!


Good magic to all,


Eric
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On 2012-06-17 20:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
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On 2012-06-17 03:33, Bill Hilly wrote:
Anybody here subscribe to the Big Crunch possibility?


? No idea how much matter there is but that's one of the possibilities. Since that idea made it to popular culture there've been some significant observations which suggest there is something acting which has a net effect of making galaxies appear to accelerate away from each other. Also there's a great deal of missing matter/energy predicted by the standard model so it's an exciting time for physics in the large (and small) while folks look for more details.

Yes, that is an interesting possibility. Recycling to the max, eh?

I've been re-reading some Stephen Hawking books here and I kind of like these questions he brouhgt up:
1. What happened before time began?
2. What did God do before he created the universe?

I suppose we could also ask; What happened (or what did God do) before he created time?

Would make good Zen koan.
The great Gumbini
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Kam

Sura 5:72,75 "They do blaspheme who say 'God is Christ the son of Mary'...Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle."

Sura 43:59 Jesus was no more than a mortal whom {Allah} favored and made an example to the Israelites."

There is just a couple of the writings that speak against Jesus. There are much more but how many do you want? One is enough for me. Remember as Christians we don't just lightly throw out statements about others beliefs without some record of it.

Hope that helps I've been very busy with work.


Good magic to all,


Eric
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On 2012-06-22 23:44, The great Gumbini wrote:
....Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle."...


Christ is a title or descriptor - loosely translates to messiah or anointed one - or maybe in some New New Testament version 3.1 the eBook which appeared on someone's hard drive courtesy of a long awaited divine digital act we get to know what his middle initial H. stands for too? Smile Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 23:42, Bill Hilly wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-17 20:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-17 03:33, Bill Hilly wrote:
Anybody here subscribe to the Big Crunch possibility?


? No idea how much matter there is but that's one of the possibilities. Since that idea made it to popular culture there've been some significant observations which suggest there is something acting which has a net effect of making galaxies appear to accelerate away from each other. Also there's a great deal of missing matter/energy predicted by the standard model so it's an exciting time for physics in the large (and small) while folks look for more details.

Yes, that is an interesting possibility. Recycling to the max, eh?

I've been re-reading some Stephen Hawking books here and I kind of like these questions he brouhgt up:
1. What happened before time began?
2. What did God do before he created the universe?

I suppose we could also ask; What happened (or what did God do) before he created time?

Would make good Zen koan.


Answer to question 1. This can only be answered by one hand clapping. Smile

Answer to question 2. He must have been busy as He had no time. Smile

Although I have no proof. So BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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On 2012-06-22 23:23, The great Gumbini wrote:
The ONLY reason this thread is still alive and kicking is because JESUS is in it.

And if He were a cop as well, He'd get at least triple the pages.
landmark
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On 2012-06-22 23:49, Jonathan Townsend wrote: we get to know what his middle initial H. stands for too? Smile Smile

"Our Father, who art in heaven, Harold be thy name..."
Bill Hilly
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Quote:
On 2012-06-23 00:06, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 23:42, Bill Hilly wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-17 20:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-17 03:33, Bill Hilly wrote:
Anybody here subscribe to the Big Crunch possibility?


? No idea how much matter there is but that's one of the possibilities. Since that idea made it to popular culture there've been some significant observations which suggest there is something acting which has a net effect of making galaxies appear to accelerate away from each other. Also there's a great deal of missing matter/energy predicted by the standard model so it's an exciting time for physics in the large (and small) while folks look for more details.

Yes, that is an interesting possibility. Recycling to the max, eh?

I've been re-reading some Stephen Hawking books here and I kind of like these questions he brouhgt up:
1. What happened before time began?
2. What did God do before he created the universe?

I suppose we could also ask; What happened (or what did God do) before he created time?

Would make good Zen koan.


Answer to question 1. This can only be answered by one hand clapping. Smile

--> Answer to question 2. He must have been busy as He had no time. Smile <--

Although I have no proof. So BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT Smile


I love that one. Smile
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 22:35, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 19:13, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 11:00, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
Tom,
At one time, didn't you "know for sure" that Santa Claus existed?

Ron



Oh I'm sure I probably did believe in Santa at Christmas time way back then.
But that didn't last long and even as a child I knew there was a big difference in the two.
Most adults (and children too) compare Santa to Elves, Superman, and other Storybook Characters, not God.

Tom


Santa Claus is portrayed as a REAL being who knows who's good or bad, and who visits houses in the night and delivers presents (and eats the cookies and drinks the milk that's left for him). The kids believe this and the parents encourage that belief. It doesn't matter if it's a short-lived belief, it's a (strongly held) belief nonetheless.

But aside from that, I'm sure there were other things you "knew for sure" at various times in your life, which later turned out to be false. That's not a knock on you - as humans we are simply susceptible to faulty reasoning. Me, you, everybody. And as all us "magicians" here know, magic capitalizes on the ability of people to be fooled ("I "knew for sure" that he had just 1 ball under that cup"!)


Ron


Let me understand something here. You say It is a short lived belief and also in your opinion a strong one. However you are leaving out the most important element of this analogy and that is you are talking about 4 year olds as compared to adults. Some of the believers you are talking about cannot count to 10 and still poop their pants. In other words your analogy of believing in Santa Claus and believing in God is meaningless.


We're talking about the state of mind known as "belief." You know as well as I do that there are plenty of bright 6, 7, and 8 year olds out there (bright enough to use their parent's ipad) who believe in Santa. And did you even read my second paragraph??

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On 2012-06-22 23:23, The great Gumbini wrote:
The ONLY reason this thread is still alive and kicking is because JESUS is in it. Jesus said it would be HIS name that would cause this kind of going back and forth. You see Jesus is the Son of God and that just rubs some wrong. But why? I mean what did He do that upsets so many? Why is it ALL religions place their gods up against The God of the Scriptures? I venture to say if you replaced in this thread the God of the Scriptures and Jesus with ANY other prophet or whatever it would not last long at all. But once again Jesus---oh that name! It just gets to people. And once again the Bible says it would. While you rail AGAINST God's Word you show it to be true!

I've often said without God there would be no atheists. The very existence of an atheist is because of God. The Psalmist wrote 700 years before Christ---"...and what is His Sons name?" Now we know. And what did His Son do? He died so we may live. Why is that offensive? Talk about all the other religions and faiths. But what do they have that the Scriptures don't? NOTHING. Now what does Christianity have that all others don't? JESUS!


Good magic to all,


Eric


Eric,

What are the chances you would be trumpeting Christianity/Jesus if you were born in, say, Afghanistan or Iran? The circumstances of one's birth is the greatest determinant of one's faith. If everybody in the world undertook a detailed analysis of all religions before selecting one, then you would expect to see a somewhat even distribution of religious preference around the world, no? But that's not how it works. People, for the most part, simply inherit the religious beliefs of their parents and blindly accept it as the one true religion.


"I've often said without God there would be no atheists. The very existence of an atheist is because of God."

Do you believe in Leprechauns? Is it fair to say you're an "A-Leprechaunist"? Well, without Leprechauns there would be no A-Leprechaunists! The very existence of A-Leprechaunists is because of Leprechauns!

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-23 08:23, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 22:35, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 19:13, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 11:00, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
Tom,
At one time, didn't you "know for sure" that Santa Claus existed?

Ron



Oh I'm sure I probably did believe in Santa at Christmas time way back then.
But that didn't last long and even as a child I knew there was a big difference in the two.
Most adults (and children too) compare Santa to Elves, Superman, and other Storybook Characters, not God.

Tom


Santa Claus is portrayed as a REAL being who knows who's good or bad, and who visits houses in the night and delivers presents (and eats the cookies and drinks the milk that's left for him). The kids believe this and the parents encourage that belief. It doesn't matter if it's a short-lived belief, it's a (strongly held) belief nonetheless.

But aside from that, I'm sure there were other things you "knew for sure" at various times in your life, which later turned out to be false. That's not a knock on you - as humans we are simply susceptible to faulty reasoning. Me, you, everybody. And as all us "magicians" here know, magic capitalizes on the ability of people to be fooled ("I "knew for sure" that he had just 1 ball under that cup"!)


Ron


Let me understand something here. You say It is a short lived belief and also in your opinion a strong one. However you are leaving out the most important element of this analogy and that is you are talking about 4 year olds as compared to adults. Some of the believers you are talking about cannot count to 10 and still poop their pants. In other words your analogy of believing in Santa Claus and believing in God is meaningless.


We're talking about the state of mind known as "belief." You know as well as I do that there are plenty of bright 6, 7, and 8 year olds out there (bright enough to use their parent's ipad) who believe in Santa. And did you even read my second paragraph??

Ron


YOU are right in youR statement that we weRe talking about a state of mind belief (of adults). But then you started talking about children believing in Santa Claus. Entirely two different categories of state of mind of children and adults. Then you do on to defend your position in the second posting using 6 an 7 year olds as anexample of intelligence...get over children and Santa Claus it has nothing to do with this topic you are comparaing children from 4 to 7 year olds to adults.

Obviously the majority of people in this world have been fooled according to you as I believe the majority of people in this world are christians. I guess you atheists are just smarter than most everyone else. Smile Can't fool you guys first there was nothing then there was something then here we are Bang. And you are talking about a ball under a cup. Jeeeez.

BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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Acesover-

You stated that the majority of people in the world are Christians. That is simply not so. While Christianity is the largest single religion, it's followers comprise only 31%-35% of all religions in the world. In other words, fully TWO-THIRDS of the world's population are NOT Christians. Here are the demographics so that you can see them for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

But, again, this is really pointless, because majority opinions are meaningless when it comes to discussing rights, philosophies, etc. The fact that more people believe in something has no bearing on whether or not their belief is "true."

Good thoughts,

Bob
R.S.
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On 2012-06-23 09:14, acesover wrote:
Obviously the majority of people in this world have been fooled according to you as I believe the majority of people in this world are christians. I guess you atheists are just smarter than most everyone else. Smile Can't fool you guys first there was nothing then there was something then here we are Bang. And you are talking about a ball under a cup. Jeeeez.

BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT


Aces,

EVERYBODY in the world has been deceived by their own senses/perceptions/memory at one time or another. Claiming 100% certainty about anything is probably not a good idea. (and I'm 99.9999% certain about that statement) Smile

Yes, I AM talking about a ball under a cup! It either exists or it does not, right? Some wholeheartedly believe it does while some may not. But when the cup is lifted and the truth is revealed, we see that somebody was wrong. Somebody who "knew for sure" that they were correct in their belief.

No thanks, I will NOT "believe what I want." I will instead accept that which is backed by sound evidence, reason, and logic. And I will, if necessary, gladly dismiss that which I have previously accepted in the face of new, more convincing evidence for something else. That should be the correct approach, no?


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
kambiz
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Ron, I agree fully with your final paragraph Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-23 12:47, R.S. wrote:
[Yes, I AM talking about a ball under a cup! It either exists or it does not, right?


Unless you are using a Schroedinger cup, of course.

(That would be an interesting presentation for the effect, now that I think of it. I'd call it "Schroedinger's Balls.")
The great Gumbini
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Ron,

I was born Jewish. After studying the Scriptures it was clear Jesus is the Messiah and I asked Him into my heart. If I were born anywhere else I believe I would still know that God is real and Jesus is His Son. In other words because God loves me so much He would make Himself known to me wherever HE chose for me to be born.

As far as leprechauns go---I don't know if they exist or not. However I do believe if you started a thread on the existence of leprechauns it would not last as long as this. And why is that by the way? Nothing quite peeks the interest like God huh?


Good magic to all,


Eric
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