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Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
But why does he choose to create people whom he knows in advance will exercise their choice so as to not follow Him?


And torture them forever after?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Dreadnought
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On 2012-06-25 00:34, kambiz wrote:

Also , what is the Christian view on John 14:28 "my Father is greater than I" ?

Thanks again guys Smile

Kam


You have to understand Christology and Trinitarian Theology. Jesus is God incarnate, God made man. He is not a human person but a divine person with a human nature as well as a divine nature. He is one person (divine) with two natures (divine and human). Here, he is assenting His humanity. That by His human nature He is not equal with God but subservient to Him.

In terms of Trinitarian Theology, each person of the Trinity is equal, each member of the Holy Trinity have a specific mission. By nature of this mission, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity fulfills His mission which is specifically assigned to Him. In regards to this mission, He is subservient to God the Father by the fact that the Father's mission relies on the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit, just as the mission of each person of the Holy Trinity relies on the other.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
But why does he choose to create people whom he knows in advance will exercise their choice so as to not follow Him?


"...On earth as it is in heaven." [Matthew 6:10]
The same reason a husband wife choose to create life. Love. Love has to be freely given. You cannot hold a person hostage, bound in a cellar and demand their love. You can love a person, the other person has the right to accept or reject that love. If they reject it then there is nothing you can do about it.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:15, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
But why does he choose to create people whom he knows in advance will exercise their choice so as to not follow Him?


And torture them forever after?


Again, the individual chooses separation. They are given what they ask for, God does not delight in the separation.

"Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living." Wisdom 1:13

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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For each of the seven billion people on the planet, there are a billion more who could have been created, but weren't. The husband and wife take whatever baby they're given. But God could have created any of the "potential people" He thought of. He could have populated the earth with 7 billion believers and loved them just as much as he loves those who are here now.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:30, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
But why does he choose to create people whom he knows in advance will exercise their choice so as to not follow Him?


"...On earth as it is in heaven." [Matthew 6:10]
The same reason a husband wife choose to create life. Love. Love has to be freely given. You cannot hold a person hostage, bound in a cellar and demand their love. You can love a person, the other person has the right to accept or reject that love. If they reject it then there is nothing you can do about it.

Peace and Godspeed.


If they reject it, you wouldn't punish them either.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Dreadnought
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He could have, but where is the freedom? Where would God be seen? In fact, if He did what you say, it would be a loveless creation.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:43, Pakar Ilusi wrote:


If they reject it, you wouldn't punish them either.


Why? Assuming that he is doing the punishing.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:49, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:43, Pakar Ilusi wrote:


If they reject it, you wouldn't punish them either.


Why? Assuming that he is doing the punishing.

Peace and Godspeed.


I see... Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
For each of the seven billion people on the planet, there are a billion more who could have been created, but weren't. The husband and wife take whatever baby they're given. But God could have created any of the "potential people" He thought of. He could have populated the earth with 7 billion believers and loved them just as much as he loves those who are here now.


Yes He "could have" Lobo, but the reality is He didn't. The wisdom is in the beauty of diversity, and what is learnt from it....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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You don't need *total* diversity for beauty.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 11:05, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 06:35, R.S. wrote:

Obviously, he HASN'T given everything one needs to believe, because many people do not believe. ET fanatics may also claim that you have been given everything you need to believe in aliens, the rest is up to you. Anyway, if it is SO important to a God that we believe in him, then why doesn't he just convince everybody? He knows what it would take. But obviously, he allows for disbelief.

So, atheists can go to Heaven if God grants a "pardon" so to speak? What is the required "state of soul" and "human disposition"? And why should anything "trump" judgement? Shouldn't the rules be consistent?

"But we know that Hell is eternal separation from God, a state freely chosen by the individual not imposed by God (He's just giving the person what they want)."

As far as this refers to atheists, this is silly, and you know it. Again, someone who does not believe that a thing even exists cannot possibly want/choose that something.


Ron


1. Yes, He has given you everything, AGAIN.... it is up to you.
Quote:
But obviously, he allows for disbelief.
BINGO!!!! It's called freewill, that thing that Atheists refuse to acknowledge but want to insist on. and AGAIN I said that Sacred Scripture shows that God knows there will people who will not believe no matter what proof is provided.

AGAINthe required state of the soul is that it is free from mortal sin and the disposition of the person is to willingly try not to sin again.

Why should anything trump judgment? Because God is all merciful. "For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." [James 2:13]

Which is based on:
"Blessed are the merciful,for they will be shown mercy" [Matthew 5:7]
"If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions." [Matthew 6:14-15]
"I desire mercy not sacrifice." [Matthew 9:13, Hosea 6:6, Ps 51:3]

Quote:
As far as this refers to atheists, this is silly, and you know it.
No, I don't know it.

Let me ask you, do you think that I may be right; that there might be a God, Heaven and Hell? Do you think that you maybe wrong? A simple yes or no answer.

Peace and Godspeed.


Free will only comes into play when choice is involved. And choice hinges on a conscious belief that you actually have things to choose from. If there is nothing to choose FROM, then no choice can take place. Hence, free will would be irrelevant.

Using quotes from the bible to prove your points about bible claims does nothing to strengthen your argument.


"Do you think that you maybe wrong?"

Wrong about what?? I have never made any knowledge claims about gods, Heaven, or Hell. Now, I do (and already have) acknowledge(d) that those things MAY exist. I don't believe that they do, but they may. But in my opinion, the likelihood is the same as Zeus or Isis or a One-Eyed Spaghetti Monster or Leprechauns existing. Do you think that YOU may be wrong?


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dreadnought
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Biblical quotes do a lot to strengthen my argument. You just choose not to accept them, again free will.

And it is a simple yes or no question, Do you think you may be wrong, AGAIN the existence of God, Heaven and Hell.

As for me, might I be wrong. Yes.

Now, your turn, just answer the question, Yes or no.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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mastermindreader
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Ron-

Please don't include Leprechauns in this discussion. As has been conclusively demonstrated on the Leprechaun thread, they DO exist.

As to God - as I've said, I believe his Creation is proof of his existence. Beyond that I don't know for sure. So I just do the best I can. (And I DO find the teachings of Jesus most worthy of following even though I have never jumped to the conclusion of accepting all Scripture as literal.)
Dreadnought
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All scripture is most definitely NOT to be taken literally.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 18:39, Dreadnought wrote:
Biblical quotes do a lot to strengthen my argument. You just choose not to accept them, again free will.

And it is a simple yes or no question, Do you think you may be wrong, AGAIN the existence of God, Heaven and Hell.

As for me, might I be wrong. Yes.

Now, your turn, just answer the question, Yes or no.

Peace and Godspeed.


Biblical quotes do absolutely nothing to strengthen your arguments about biblical claims. Unless we must believe that the bible is true simply because the bible says so.

Now you're just messing with me, right? I clearly stated that although those things MAY exist, I don't believe that they do. I never made any claims of absolute knowledge. Can some things that I believe (or don't believe) turn out to be incorrect? Yes, absolutely. That should have been apparent from my previous post(s).


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 19:02, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 18:39, Dreadnought wrote:
Biblical quotes do a lot to strengthen my argument. You just choose not to accept them, again free will.

And it is a simple yes or no question, Do you think you may be wrong, AGAIN the existence of God, Heaven and Hell.

As for me, might I be wrong. Yes.

Now, your turn, just answer the question, Yes or no.

Peace and Godspeed.


Biblical quotes do absolutely nothing to strengthen your arguments about biblical claims. Unless we must believe that the bible is true simply because the bible says so.

Now you're just messing with me, right? I clearly stated that although those things MAY exist, I don't believe that they do. I never made any claims of absolute knowledge. Can some things that I believe (or don't believe) turn out to be incorrect? Yes, absolutely. That should have been apparent from my previous post(s).


Ron


Now, if I was messing with you, I'd cold read you, or hot read you. Hot reads are more fun.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 18:52, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron-

Please don't include Leprechauns in this discussion. As has been conclusively demonstrated on the Leprechaun thread, they DO exist.

As to God - as I've said, I believe his Creation is proof of his existence. Beyond that I don't know for sure. So I just do the best I can. (And I DO find the teachings of Jesus most worthy of following even though I have never jumped to the conclusion of accepting all Scripture as literal.)


Mr. Leprecassidy,

Leprechaun belief will only lead to cereal wars and discrimination towards short people. Come to your senses, I say!!!

Ron
:)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Steve_Mollett
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On 2012-06-24 18:43, The great Gumbini wrote:
Steve,

that's easy---our parents do the best they can. But they like us are not perfect. God is. The best parents are those who guide their children toward God. This will help them to start the most important relationship they will ever have.

BTW did you here the news in Egypt today everyone? Keep a close eye on this. Although "promises" have been made that International agreements will still be respected ONLY time will tell and I believe "promises" will be broken. Now more than ever even non-believers will look into the Bible to see what will happen. All other material mentioned in this thread WILL NOT be consulted---NOT ONE. Why? The answers are in the Scriptures alone. Here is my challenge to ALL non-believers look up and see what YOUR books say about THIS time period. Because of the recent events (past 60 years to today) Biblical Scholars and other interested parties are seeing the time spoken of in Ezek:36-40 is starting to come full circle. My advice is simple---read ALL the books you want---But STUDY the Bible in it you will find the answers.


Good magic to all,


Eric

Not "easy"...SIMPLISTIC is the word you want; an exercise in circular logic beginning and ending with an ancient book.
My apologies for even asking.
"The late Mr. Hart."
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The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
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Steve_Mollett
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Robert Ringer once noted (paraphrased):
It's your own fault if you choose to sit in a cage while a neurotic throws in peanuts and chants, "Two plus two equals six--two plus two equals six!"

I'm done with this thread, guys. Buh-bye. Smile
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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