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kambiz
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Elvis has left the building!

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Devious
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I am half-Mexican, so I believe in a Supreme "Bean"
Devious Deceptions
"Gadol Elohai!"
L'Chaim!
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 20:21, Devious wrote:
I am half-Mexican, so I believe in a Supreme "Bean"


I used to say in my comedy routine: "My kids are half-Irish, half-Mexican, and half-Norwegian. I don't know how that happened... I'm from Oregon!"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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On 2012-06-25 13:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:
You don't need *total* diversity for beauty.


It's plainly obvious that God creates with massive diversity. In your opinion, you don't need total diversity for beauty, but beauty may not be the sole reason for this diversity. The reality is that we are here.......here we are......look around you, and you will see total diversity in every aspect of life.....now multiply that diversity infinitely when they find life (intelligent or otherwise) on other planets. This is just the beginning Lobo.

As humans, we all have something in common, an intellect, a heart and an ability to seek truth, and an inherent ability to recognize truth when we see it. We ALL have those latent capacities at birth. With sufficient education, those latent capacities are developed and fine tuned, and our capacity to exercise our free will is nourished.

God, sits there in the background and once in every 1000 years or so, provides the instruction manual for the age in which we live in. Follow the instructions and those 'latent capacities' are enhanced further and further, creating a sense of "heaven".....it feels GOOD to grow in capacity, and you sense that you have a direction, something to aim for in life, in THIS life!! You feel things that comfort you, you sense a connection to an Supreme Consciousness.

Now to say to us, why did he create atheists, and not make us all the same in terms if ability to recognize him is to deny the existence of free will. Some people just can't be bothered. I may come to you and say "Hey I just took up pole vaulting, wanna give it a try?" .....you are within your right to say no, but don't go around telling everyone that you were created not to reap the exciting benefits of pole vaulting, it is YOU that made that decision.

God has provided all humans with the ability to find Him. The Biblical message is becoming increasingly difficult to practice in this day. Why? Because the message in the Bible does not fulfill the evolutionary capacities of many in this time. I keep telling people here, the Message has been renewed. Religion has evolved. You wanna build your capacities and the capacities of your community? I recommend you follow the updated Instruction Manual for todays individual and community.

You wanna build a table from IKEA? Follow the updated instruction manual for the table, not an old one.....

But again, that's entirely YOU'RE choice Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 20:52, kambiz wrote:
The Biblical message is becoming increasingly difficult to practice in this day. Why? Because the message in the Bible does not fulfill the evolutionary capacities of many in this time. I
Kam


It most certainly does fulfill the evolutionary capacities of this time. Just as it has in all times in the past. And now, just as in the past, there are people who choose not to follow that guidance because it interferes with what they want to do and that is people of faith and no faith. Matthew 19, the rich young man, is just one example. I think the majority of people want to do the morally and ethically right thing. But they let how they want to live life get in the way. People are fine with comforting the afflicted. But people tend to get their dander up when their comfort is afflicted. When it comes to moral guidance, there is no difference between people now and people who lived 2000, 4000, 5000 years ago. A modern example is something I read a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it was by a Harvard ethicist. He stated that the 10 commandments needed to be re-written as things like adultery should be allowed, because marriage is an antiquated institution and every one commits adultery anyway.

And this is not me pontificating. Trust me, I do my fair share of kicking and screaming, and refusing.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
kambiz
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So Dreadnought, and I agree with many parts of your post above, Smile what is your understanding of ye Biblical passage:

"...and I saw a new heaven and a new earth, and the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea..." ?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Devious
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The sea represents our separation from heaven as it were.
One day we will enjoy the single plane of existence in unity!
Devious Deceptions
"Gadol Elohai!"
L'Chaim!
kambiz
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Wow!! Devious......Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 20:52, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 13:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:
You don't need *total* diversity for beauty.


It's plainly obvious that God creates with massive diversity. In your opinion, you don't need total diversity for beauty, but beauty may not be the sole reason for this diversity. The reality is that we are here.......here we are......look around you, and you will see total diversity in every aspect of life.....now multiply that diversity infinitely when they find life (intelligent or otherwise) on other planets. This is just the beginning Lobo.

As humans, we all have something in common, an intellect, a heart and an ability to seek truth, and an inherent ability to recognize truth when we see it. We ALL have those latent capacities at birth. With sufficient education, those latent capacities are developed and fine tuned, and our capacity to exercise our free will is nourished.

God, sits there in the background and once in every 1000 years or so, provides the instruction manual for the age in which we live in. Follow the instructions and those 'latent capacities' are enhanced further and further, creating a sense of "heaven".....it feels GOOD to grow in capacity, and you sense that you have a direction, something to aim for in life, in THIS life!! You feel things that comfort you, you sense a connection to an Supreme Consciousness.

Now to say to us, why did he create atheists, and not make us all the same in terms if ability to recognize him is to deny the existence of free will. Some people just can't be bothered. I may come to you and say "Hey I just took up pole vaulting, wanna give it a try?" .....you are within your right to say no, but don't go around telling everyone that you were created not to reap the exciting benefits of pole vaulting, it is YOU that made that decision.

God has provided all humans with the ability to find Him. The Biblical message is becoming increasingly difficult to practice in this day. Why? Because the message in the Bible does not fulfill the evolutionary capacities of many in this time. I keep telling people here, the Message has been renewed. Religion has evolved. You wanna build your capacities and the capacities of your community? I recommend you follow the updated Instruction Manual for todays individual and community.

You wanna build a table from IKEA? Follow the updated instruction manual for the table, not an old one.....

But again, that's entirely YOU'RE choice Smile

Kam


Do you believe there will be free will in heaven?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 21:21, kambiz wrote:
So Dreadnought, and I agree with many parts of your post above, Smile what is your understanding of ye Biblical passage:

"...and I saw a new heaven and a new earth, and the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea..." ?

Kam


It's the Book of Revelation [Rev. 21:1]. It is eschatological statement. Some say it is still to come others say it was brought forth with Pentacost, the birth of the Church (The new Jerusalem). There is also a theory being advanced that it came about when Jesus started His ministry, "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” [Mark 1:15]

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 00:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 20:52, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 13:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:
You don't need *total* diversity for beauty.


It's plainly obvious that God creates with massive diversity. In your opinion, you don't need total diversity for beauty, but beauty may not be the sole reason for this diversity. The reality is that we are here.......here we are......look around you, and you will see total diversity in every aspect of life.....now multiply that diversity infinitely when they find life (intelligent or otherwise) on other planets. This is just the beginning Lobo.

As humans, we all have something in common, an intellect, a heart and an ability to seek truth, and an inherent ability to recognize truth when we see it. We ALL have those latent capacities at birth. With sufficient education, those latent capacities are developed and fine tuned, and our capacity to exercise our free will is nourished.

God, sits there in the background and once in every 1000 years or so, provides the instruction manual for the age in which we live in. Follow the instructions and those 'latent capacities' are enhanced further and further, creating a sense of "heaven".....it feels GOOD to grow in capacity, and you sense that you have a direction, something to aim for in life, in THIS life!! You feel things that comfort you, you sense a connection to an Supreme Consciousness.

Now to say to us, why did he create atheists, and not make us all the same in terms if ability to recognize him is to deny the existence of free will. Some people just can't be bothered. I may come to you and say "Hey I just took up pole vaulting, wanna give it a try?" .....you are within your right to say no, but don't go around telling everyone that you were created not to reap the exciting benefits of pole vaulting, it is YOU that made that decision.

God has provided all humans with the ability to find Him. The Biblical message is becoming increasingly difficult to practice in this day. Why? Because the message in the Bible does not fulfill the evolutionary capacities of many in this time. I keep telling people here, the Message has been renewed. Religion has evolved. You wanna build your capacities and the capacities of your community? I recommend you follow the updated Instruction Manual for todays individual and community.

You wanna build a table from IKEA? Follow the updated instruction manual for the table, not an old one.....

But again, that's entirely YOU'RE choice Smile

Kam


Do you believe there will be free will in heaven?


I love that question.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
LobowolfXXX
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Thanks!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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The majority of free will for humans in this world revolves around the choice between choosing to feed our animal/material nature, or our spiritual nature.

Since the material nature of humans is shed when transitioning from this world to the next, then "that" aspect of free will is lost...

However, spiritual perfections are infinite, both in number and the quality of perfection achieved, so there will always be work to be done. Our services to God do not end when we go into the next world. The nature of the choices that are presented to our souls to render these services, is a mystery and has not been fully divulged in the Baha'i Writings. (maybe that will be something that may be divulged further by the next Divine Manifestation)....to serve or not to serve? How much service? The nature of the free will, is totally different to this world....

All I do know is this: (these are 2 passages from Abdu'-Baha, Baha'u'llah's eldest son, and His successor)

"As to the question whether the souls will recognize each other in the spiritual world: This (fact) is certain; for the Kingdom is the world of vision (i.e., things are visible in it), where all the concealed realities will become disclosed. How much more the well-known souls will become manifest. The mysteries of which man is heedless in this earthly world, those will he discover in the heavenly world, and there will he be informed of the secret of truth; how much more will he recognize or discover persons with whom he hath been associated. Undoubtedly, the holy souls who find a pure eye and are favored with insight will, in the kingdom of lights, be acquainted with all mysteries, and will seek the bounty of witnessing the reality of every great soul. Even they will manifestly behold the Beauty of God in that world. Likewise will they find all the friends of God, both those of the former and recent times, present in the heavenly assemblage."


"The difference and distinction will naturally become realized between all men after their departure from this mortal world. But this (distinction) is not in respect to place, but it is in respect to the soul and conscience. For the Kingdom of God is sanctified (or free) from time and place; it is another world and another universe. But the holy souls are promised the gift of intercession. And know thou for a certainty, that in the divine worlds, the spiritual beloved ones (believers) will recognize each other, and will seek union (with each other), but a spiritual union. Likewise, a love that one may have entertained for any one will not be forgotten in the world of the Kingdom. Likewise, thou wilt not forget (there) the life that thou hast had in the material world."

There is therefore an implication here that there are some elements of free will, but that is not excercised in whether God exists or not, for example. Thank the Lord, those sorts of things are for this world only Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 00:56, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 21:21, kambiz wrote:
So Dreadnought, and I agree with many parts of your post above, Smile what is your understanding of the Biblical passage:

"...and I saw a new heaven and a new earth, and the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea..." ?

Kam



It's the Book of Revelation [Rev. 21:1]. It is eschatological statement. Some say it is still to come others say it was brought forth with Pentacost, the birth of the Church (The new Jerusalem). There is also a theory being advanced that it came about when Jesus started His ministry, "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” [Mark 1:15]

Peace and Godspeed.



So why "a NEW Jerusalem".....how is the Church "NEW" when compared to the Bible?

What is the "first heaven and the first earth", that it needs to be superceded by a new heaven and earth?



Quote:
On 2012-06-25 21:12, Dreadnought wrote:

It most certainly does fulfill the evolutionary capacities of this time. Just as it has in all times in the past. And now, just as in the past, there are people who choose not to follow that guidance because it interferes with what they want to do and that is people of faith and no faith. Matthew 19, the rich young man, is just one example. I think the majority of people want to do the morally and ethically right thing. But they let how they want to live life get in the way. People are fine with comforting the afflicted. But people tend to get their dander up when their comfort is afflicted. When it comes to moral guidance, there is no difference between people now and people who lived 2000, 4000, 5000 years ago. A modern example is something I read a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it was by a Harvard ethicist. He stated that the 10 commandments needed to be re-written as things like adultery should be allowed, because marriage is an antiquated institution and every one commits adultery anyway.

And this is not me pontificating. Trust me, I do my fair share of kicking and screaming, and refusing.

Peace and Godspeed.



In many ways here you are correct Dreadnought, core spiritual values have not changed for 3-5000 years. The Buddha, Zoroaster etc, taught all the values you see in the Old and New Testaments. So my question therefore is why does the Catholic Church feel the need for a Catechism?

What you may wish to explore, is, in my humble opinion, the evolution of human consciousness. As consciousness evolves, what is right or wrong needs to be "ADDED" to, as the nature of our relationships and connections become increasingly more complex......hence some of the interpretive components of the CCC, which is, in part, the Catholic Church's attempt to bring the Bible to evolve with the evolution of human consciousness, in my opinion....

However, I feel it an impelling argument to explore why God Himself has done that too? Is it possible that the Catechism and God are in competition?

Here are some papers referring to how human consciousness has evolved Smile


ftp://ftp.dca.fee.unicamp.br/pub/docs/ia......ious.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles......0042.pdf

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/rev/17/2/77/


Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
acesover
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Why are we all going on about this? Life here is so short. Go on and believe what you want and don't worry what others believe. The only thing we know for sure is that we are all going to die. What happens then is not known for sure. Some believe they know others believe it is over. What ever it is, it is inevitable so just live a good life and believe now that you made the right decisions.

Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. Religion is a very difficult topic to discuss in person and this medium makes it that much more difficult. While it is fine to discuss, we have to be careful not to hurt. Not sure how long this discussion will go on but I am done here. It was interesting and entertaining.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 10:22, acesover wrote:
Why are we all going on about this? Life here is so short.


I agree with you acesover, life is too short to stop learning. I want to learn more about Christianity, Islam, and any other perspectives that people can offer me. Not sure about you, but I have some great learnings that have come out of this thread, and long may it continue Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Acesover, I think you right. Life is short and we should respect each other.

Most of the religion talk is way over my head anyway.

I'm just glad God kept things simple for people like me.


Besides, if you need a mind like a lawyer to get to heaven, I'm not sure I want to be there anyway. Smile LOL

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 03:12, kambiz wrote:

So Dreadnought, and I agree with many parts of your post above, Smile what is your understanding of the Biblical passage:

"...and I saw a new heaven and a new earth, and the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea..." ?

Kam



It's the Book of Revelation [Rev. 21:1]. It is eschatological statement. Some say it is still to come others say it was brought forth with Pentacost, the birth of the Church (The new Jerusalem). There is also a theory being advanced that it came about when Jesus started His ministry, "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” [Mark 1:15]

Peace and Godspeed.


Quote:
So why "a NEW Jerusalem".....how is the Church "NEW" when compared to the Bible?

What is the "first heaven and the first earth", that it needs to be superceded by a new heaven and earth?




On 2012-06-25 21:12, Dreadnought wrote:

It most certainly does fulfill the evolutionary capacities of this time. Just as it has in all times in the past. And now, just as in the past, there are people who choose not to follow that guidance because it interferes with what they want to do and that is people of faith and no faith. Matthew 19, the rich young man, is just one example. I think the majority of people want to do the morally and ethically right thing. But they let how they want to live life get in the way. People are fine with comforting the afflicted. But people tend to get their dander up when their comfort is afflicted. When it comes to moral guidance, there is no difference between people now and people who lived 2000, 4000, 5000 years ago. A modern example is something I read a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it was by a Harvard ethicist. He stated that the 10 commandments needed to be re-written as things like adultery should be allowed, because marriage is an antiquated institution and every one commits adultery anyway.

And this is not me pontificating. Trust me, I do my fair share of kicking and screaming, and refusing.

Peace and Godspeed.


Quote:
In many ways here you are correct Dreadnought, core spiritual values have not changed for 3-5000 years. The Buddha, Zoroaster etc, taught all the values you see in the Old and New Testaments. So my question therefore is why does the Catholic Church feel the need for a Catechism?

What you may wish to explore, is, in my humble opinion, the evolution of human consciousness. As consciousness evolves, what is right or wrong needs to be "ADDED" to, as the nature of our relationships and connections become increasingly more complex......hence some of the interpretive components of the CCC, which is, in part, the Catholic Church's attempt to bring the Bible to evolve with the evolution of human consciousness, in my opinion....

However, I feel it an impelling argument to explore why God Himself has done that too? Is it possible that the Catechism and God are in competition?

Here are some papers referring to how human consciousness has evolved Smile


ftp://ftp.dca.fee.unicamp.br/pub/docs/ia......ious.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles......0042.pdf

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/rev/17/2/77/


Kam



Jerusalem is the City of God. The cultural, political and religious center of God’s chosen people. It is the place where all the descendants of Abraham will gather, which is what it looks like now with the three Abrahamic faiths all gathered there, Jew, Christian and Muslim.

The New Jerusalem refers to the Church., which is the political, religious and cultural center of the people of God. Like, Jerusalem (The actual city) it, by its very nature, serves as the moral compass for society. The Church is new in that it is the fulfillment of divine revelation which ended with the death of the last apostle, St. John the Evangelist.

The Church recognizes personal revelation. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit from whom all wisdom and knowledge comes and from whom divine revelation came. The Holy Spirit was spoken of in the Old Testament; His earliest mention is Genesis 1:2,

~“and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters.”~

The Hebrew word used in the text is Ruach, which is the breath of God, Ruach Elohim is the Spirit of God.

The first heaven and first earth are where we are now. The New Heaven and New Earth are eschatological terms used to describe the final state of a redeemed mankind, where all the old has passed away, no more war, no more death, no more sickness, no more tears, no more sorrow.

Some theologians say that Heaven, as it exists now, does have sorrow in it. The Saints, the Blessed Mother, the Choirs of angels, and God are praying for us here on earth. Messages from mystics and Marian apparitions speak of a sorrowful God who watches the plight of man as man turns away from God. Here is a quote sure to stir things up with people, who question omnipotence,

Quote:
I am greater than God. Because when I talk He has to listen to me.

St. John Vianney

This means, that when man speaks God, who is Love, has to listen because He cannot deny Himself, He cannot stand in contradiction to His nature. His nature is love and that great love for us demands that He listens to our plea. But, man, because of his fallen nature and his freewill can simply choose not to listen to God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church was never meant to be distributed to the general public. It was originally meant to be given only to the Bishops, who insisted that it be given to the priests and it was then that it was decided that it will distributed to the general public. Its original intention was to serve as a guide for the Bishops to keep the inline with the teachings of the Church. It is pretty bland reading. If one ever has trouble sleeping at night then cracking open the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a pretty good remedy.

The Catechism is only a collection of Catholic teachings. The Catechism and God are not in competition. These teachings are based on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture is 3000 years old +/- 1000 years. Sacred Tradition is at least 2000 years old. Therefore, the teachings inside the Catechism are as old as both. It’s true that the Catechism speaks of modern things, among these modern issues are nuclear war, arms proliferation, contraception, abortion, stem cells, immigration, just war, the rights of workers, capital punishment, preferential treatment of the poor, UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE (Something the Catholic Church has been championing since 1919, long before the United States government took an interest). But the teachings on these subjects, again, are based on teachings that are thousands of years old.

New issues always come up and the question of right and wrong are always part of those issues. Again, the Church studies each issue. It may take the Church years to render a decision but the decision is based on the bedrock of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

A prime example is homosexuality. The Church knows what science says, which is basically, nothing. Compelling arguments on both sides cancel each other out. Some say the person is born this way, others say it is a decision, nothing biological about it. There is no compelling evidence on either side to sway the Church one way or the other. Therefore, the Church relies on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

You are correct in saying that things are made known to us in small pieces at a time. That is because God knows what we can and can’t handle or understand. I tell people, imagine you had a time machine and you go back 70,000 years and visit a Neanderthal tribe. Through science you have the ability to communicate with them. You try to explain to them life would be a lot easier if they had an SUV. They wouldn’t know what the hell you were talking about. At the bare minimum, you would have to explain to them metallurgy, the science of the combustible engine, and just the hell is rubber. In the end, they’d probably hit you with a rock… unless you performed Cups and Balls, then they might worship you as god.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
kambiz
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Hi Dreadnought,

Thankyou for your thorough reply Smile

One more question, if I may....

When you say that the Church is the fulfillment of divine revelation and is "guided by the Holy Spirit", specifically, "which" church are you referring to?
(and this question goes to any Christian that can answer too. Smile. )

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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I think it is clear that Dreadnought is referring to the Catholic Church.
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