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The great Gumbini
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Kam,

I really don't try to explain the other writings because although they claim their path is the one that leads to God they only site themselves as the author. They also show what YOU must do in life in order to gain this acceptance. Whereas the Bible has prophecy from the Old Testament that was fulfilled by the coming Messiah (Jesus) and in the New Testament there is prophecy concerning what is taking place now. These other writings have no such prophecies. While there may be some very fine things in the other writings the Bible has things we need to know for living now.

Change? I believe there is no change. In the Old Testament God showed He was Holy and required us to be Holy. In the New Testament God is still Holy and shows us the way to be Holy. This is by accepting Jesus as our Savior. We were unable to be Holy on our own.


Hope that helps.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Mate....change?? How do you explain the change of divorce laws and the abrogation of the Sabbath by Jesus. There was significant change, and that's just two off the top of my head Smile

Can you at least explain why those two laws where changed? Thanks....

As for the "other" Writings from other Authors, I will give you plenty to work with Smile....besides since when was prophecy a sign of being a Messenger of God? If that was the case, Nostradamus would be right up there too...

I'm still a little stunned about Dreadnoughts admission on the forum, I will post my thoughts when I get another few moments...

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Kam-

Dreadnought gave an accurate answer that comes practically directly from the Catholic Catechism. That is exactly how Catholics view the Church.

Why are you "stunned?" That has ALWAYS been the Catholic position and belief.
kambiz
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Maybe I'll read it again Bob...lol....maybe I misunderstood...

I read it as the Holy Spirit only animating the decison makers within the Catholic Church, and no other denominations....as I said I think I misunderstood....I'll re-write my thoughts after a second read.... Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-27 18:34, mastermindreader wrote:
Those chick comics remain some of the most unintentionally hilarious religious tracts that I've ever seen.


I love Chick Tracts. I think they perfectly illustrate just how preposterous many see organized religion. Their message is just as ludicrous and poorly thought out as the equally hilarious "Way of the Master" tripe put out by Ray (banana man) Comfort. I find it impossible to believe that anyone has ever been converted after reading one of these unconvincing little comics or listening to any of Mr. Comfort's poorly reasoned arguments.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
kambiz
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The exploration of the Catholic Church and its authority over Christianity, in this thread, stemmed from my observation that the Bible no longer fulfills the evolutionary capacities of the consciousness of many in this day and age. My reflection was based on the numbers of people no longer affiliated with active Christianity, either becoming atheists altogether, or moving to other religions. Some of my observations are manifested in several contributors in this thread. Let us take Jeff for example, it was not as if he didn't "try" to remain faithful, he simply felt there were too many intellectual concerns with the Bible. There are several more out there:

http://www.click2houston.com/news/Church......dex.html


Dreadnought responded to this observation by outlining how morality does not change over 2000,3000,5000 years, to which I asked, why therefore does the Catholic church feel the need for a catechism?

Quote:
On 2012-06-26 12:11, Dreadnought wrote:
New issues always come up and the question of right and wrong are always part of those issues. Again, the Church studies each issue. It may take the Church years to render a decision but the decision is based on the bedrock of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.



If new issues always come up, which I agree with, (the issues of today are in no comparison to the issues of 2000 years ago), then if the Bible cannot provide guidance to these issues, then the guidance in the Bible cannot meet the demands of modern society. Which is fair enough, so according to Dreadnought, the Church is given the authority to make those decisions to foster the modern day needs of the Catholic community. And I acknowledge that those decisions are firmly based on the core values of the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God, its infallibility is unquestioned, according to many, including Baha'is.

However, what must be questioned is, are the decisions made by the Church,today, in response to modern day issues, considered the same as if Jesus was making those decisions, or not?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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The thing is that the Church does not hold the Bible as the only source of guidance. It never has.
kambiz
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Oh really? What else do they use Bob?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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You might find it enlightening to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It may be read online.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

The precise answer to your question- Sacred Scripture (the Bible), the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium.

The complete section of the catechism which describes these can be found at:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#74

Here is the brief summary of the complete section cited above:

Quote:
IN BRIEF

96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.

97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.

98 "The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes" (DV 8 § 1).

99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-27 22:50, kambiz wrote:
The exploration of the Catholic Church and its authority over Christianity, in this thread, stemmed from my observation that the Bible no longer fulfills the evolutionary capacities of the consciousness of many in this day and age. My reflection was based on the numbers of people no longer affiliated with active Christianity, either becoming atheists altogether, or moving to other religions. Some of my observations are manifested in several contributors in this thread. Let us take Jeff for example, it was not as if he didn't "try" to remain faithful, he simply felt there were too many intellectual concerns with the Bible. There are several more out there:

http://www.click2houston.com/news/Church......dex.html


Dreadnought responded to this observation by outlining how morality does not change over 2000,3000,5000 years, to which I asked, why therefore does the Catholic church feel the need for a catechism?

Quote:
On 2012-06-26 12:11, Dreadnought wrote:
New issues always come up and the question of right and wrong are always part of those issues. Again, the Church studies each issue. It may take the Church years to render a decision but the decision is based on the bedrock of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.





If new issues always come up, which I agree with, (the issues of today are in no comparison to the issues of 2000 years ago), then if the Bible cannot provide guidance to these issues, then the guidance in the Bible cannot meet the demands of modern society. Which is fair enough, so according to Dreadnought, the Church is given the authority to make those decisions to foster the modern day needs of the Catholic community. And I acknowledge that those decisions are firmly based on the core values of the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God, its infallibility is unquestioned, according to many, including Baha'is.

However, what must be questioned is, are the decisions made by the Church,today, in response to modern day issues, considered the same as if Jesus was making those decisions, or not?

Kam


The Church doesn't change to fit the whims of humanity. It's remained rock steady for 2000 years. If one doesn't agree then they are free to leave. It doesn't matter how many people embrace atheism or another religion Jesus' promise (Prophecy) to the Church is "The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18). The Church has withstood every obstacle thrown at it. The faith of the people converted the Roman Empire. It withstood the Reformation. It withstood kings and queens and even its own debauchery. In the face of the pedophile scandal, the news media and the nay sayers claim the Catholic Church is dying, that Christianity as a whole is an archaic institution. However, what the same media, et al, fail to report is that for the third straight year, the Archdiocese of Atlanta brought in almost 2000 new converts at the Easter vigil, we usually average 1500-2500 new converts per year. It was the largest number in United States and three years ago , we were recognized by the Holy See, as having the largest number of new converts in the entire world with 2500.

"However, what must be questioned is, are the decisions made by the Church,today, in response to modern day issues, considered the same as if Jesus was making those decisions, or not?" The Pope is the successor to Saint Peter who was entrusted with its care. (Matthew 16, John 21). He, along with the bishops form the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. So, the short answer is yes.

The issues that come up today are no different than issues from 2000-5000 years ago or since man first grew opposable thumbs and started walking up right. Maybe the better way to put it is, the issues change color or appear in other clothing, so there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
mastermindreader
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Contrary to Kam's assertion that the teachings of the Church are static and not suited to the present age, the Church clearly asserts that God continues to converse with the Church to lead believers to the full truth.

Quote:
79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39


http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#79
kambiz
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Hi Bob, I never said that the Church's teachings are static. My assertion was that the teachings of the "Bible" are not fully applicable to modern society.

Your quote from the catechism above, what is the Biblical basis behind such an assertion? If it is from Col 3:16, then I'm sorry, to make an interpretation as the catechism makes (which you quoted) from that passage in the Bible is in my opinion, way off the mark.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The great Gumbini
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Kam,

First PROPHECY is and always will be what is vital to the Scriptures until the Lord comes again. Jesus HAD to fulfill what was written by the "Prophets" so Israel would KNOW who the Messiah was when He showed up. Unfortunately Israel was so caught up in it's own righteousness that it for the most part missed Jesus. They were looking for a different "kingdom".

The Sabbath was never changed. The day Christians worship is sunday to commemorate Jesus being raised. Also the Jews would do their worship on saturday and since most often the same buildings were used it was a scheduling thing as well.

Kam I would love to hear how you reason that the Bible no longer "no longer fulfills the evolutionary capacities of the consciousness" of many today? Let man be a lier and Gods' word the truth the Bible declares. Tell me from the New Testament exactly what you feel is in need of change? Remember the Bible says God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Now I'm not here to debate different peoples belief as far as Christianity is concerned. I will say "Religion" has numerous problems. However God and His Word are JUST AS RELEVANT today if not more so as when the words were first written. In fact I will go so far as to say it could be argued that a lot of these words were MEANT FOR TODAY. When has a one world denomination (monetary) been possible? When could the world (THE WORLD) ever face a weapon so powerful it could destroy all the world? When could a "mark" be given that could be scanned so people could buy or sell? When has there EVER been such a turning away from Gods' Word as there is today? Surely you know GOD predicts this "falling away"? These are PIN POINT prophecies Kam. What about the Middle East? PIN POINT prophecy. No symbolism here Kam but PIN POINT. Did you know when the uprising in Egypt first started there was a point made saying The Muslim Brotherhood WOULD NOT take control? Guess what Kam? Smell the coffee they are in control. What does that mean? Well they have already said the treaty with Israel will have to be rethought. Well my own opinion is rethink it very wisely. If Israel is attacked no one will question if God exists. He will show His mighty hand and then what book will you and all non believers want to read? Again buy ALL THE BOOKS YOU WANT---READ THEM AND HAVE FUN. But have a Bible at the ready. God said His people perish from lack of knowledge. Read Ezek:36-40 to see what HAS, IS and WILL BE going on in the Middle East.


Good magic to all,


Eric
critter
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I don't roll on Shabbos!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 00:36, kambiz wrote:
Hi Bob, I never said that the Church's teachings are static. My assertion was that the teachings of the "Bible" are not fully applicable to modern society.

Your quote from the catechism above, what is the Biblical basis behind such an assertion? If it is from Col 3:16, then I'm sorry, to make an interpretation as the catechism makes (which you quoted) from that passage in the Bible is in my opinion, way off the mark.

Kam


What makes you think I'm defending Catholicism? I'm a Deist, remember? I was just providing you with a resource where you can find the official doctrines of the Catholic Church.
The great Gumbini
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And God still hates divorce. People change things. God stays the same.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Lol, hi Bob, I know your position, I was just responding to it to allow flow to the thread Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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"Boondock Saints" almost makes me want to convert. Almost.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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Eric, can you relate to me some of the prophecies that points out that Jesus was the Messiah?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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I've got to admit, though, that even though I presently consider myself a Deist, I still feel very strong ties to the Catholic Church and I constantly wrestle with questions of faith.

But that's my own personal journey, so it's really not that relevant here, except perhaps to explain why I still will occasionally try to explain Church doctrine as I have come to understand it.

Good thoughts,

Bob
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