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Payne
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On 2012-06-29 23:45, The great Gumbini wrote:

There are NUMEROUS prophecies that Jesus fulfilled from the Old Testament. Here is a site that will show you a lot of them and you can look these up and see what you think. Google "Prophecies of Jesus Christ as Messiah". He fulfilled EVERYTHING written about Him. Hope that helps.



Since there is no extra biblical evidence that supports the claims that Jesus fulfilled a single prophecy, or even existed at all it doesn't matter if I Goggle "Prophecies of Jesus Christ as Messiah". It is all just unverifiable hearsay. And pretty unreliable hearsay at that since the Bible makes several historical errors that render it pretty useless as a source for dependable history.

Find me a Roman record or a Jewish historian who wrote (in period) about a single one of these supposed prophecies being fulfilled or a miracle taking place. Then we'll talk
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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On 2012-06-30 00:49, kambiz wrote:
So Eric, what do you make of Baha'u'llahs claim that He is the Father, and the voice speaking to Moses in the Burning Bush?

Kam


Claims are easy. I can claim to be the Queen of Sheba. Even if I can convince a lot of people I am it still doesn't make it true. History is full of people claiming to be prophets or the voice of god(s). But in the end they all fail to provide compelling proof in support of their claims.

So answer me this. Why must god(s) always relate their message through a prophet? If what it has to say to its children is so important why not tell all of us. And how do we tell false prophets from the true ones. How do we know Baha'u'llah wasn't just as deluded as Joesph Smith, L Ron Hubbard or Jim Jones?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
mastermindreader
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I will quibble a bit with what Payne has written. To say that there is NO extra biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus is not accurate. There is some, but it is admittedly not overwhelming. It does indicate, though, at least to me, that it is more likely that Jesus existed than that he didn't.

We should also keep in mind that the historicity of Paul HAS been established, and in Paul's own writings he attests to having met the original apostles including Jesus' brother James.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity......_sources
critter
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"I am the monarch of the sea,
The ruler of the Queen's Navee,
Whose praise Great Britain loudly chants."

"And we are his sisters, and his cousins, and his aunts!"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 01:50, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-30 00:49, kambiz wrote:
So Eric, what do you make of Baha'u'llahs claim that He is the Father, and the voice speaking to Moses in the Burning Bush?

Kam


Claims are easy. I can claim to be the Queen of Sheba. Even if I can convince a lot of people I am it still doesn't make it true. History is full of people claiming to be prophets or the voice of god(s). But in the end they all fail to provide compelling proof in support of their claims.

So answer me this. Why must god(s) always relate their message through a prophet? If what it has to say to its children is so important why not tell all of us. And how do we tell false prophets from the true ones. How do we know Baha'u'llah wasn't just as deluded as Joesph Smith, L Ron Hubbard or Jim Jones?


Payne, your question is a very valid one. I feel it can be answered by many in this thread.

Maybe, Dreadnought and Eric can offer us some guidance on how Jesus advised us on how we know a true Divine Messenger from a false one.
There are plenty of quotes from the Bible and Traditions.

I would be very keen to hear a Catholic perspective....

Dreadnought, Eric ?? Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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In regards to your other question Payne. God does tell all of us His Message through the Scriptures. It's how it has always been. Why is that such a difficult medium for you to accept amigo? Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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That's kind of begging the question isn't it, Kam? Payne does not accept the basic premise that God exists or, if He did, would have any desire to communicate with us at all.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 23:45, The great Gumbini wrote:
Kam,


There are NUMEROUS prophecies that Jesus fulfilled from the Old Testament. Here is a site that will show you a lot of them and you can look these up and see what you think. Google "Prophecies of Jesus Christ as Messiah". He fulfilled EVERYTHING written about Him. Hope that helps.


Good magic to all,


Eric


Hi Eric, I am fully familiar with the Judaic prophecies that have been fulfilled by Jesus, which makes Him, rightly so, the Messiah.

However, you will find the majority of those prophecies were symbolic in their meaning. The point I am making, is that this symbolic interpretation of the prophecies for Jesus's first coming equally applies to His Second Coming.

Baha'u'llah has not come to remove or abrogate the Revelation of Jesus, but rather to enable humanity to live more fully by its beauty. Any glance at the teachings of Baha'u'llah can identify that this is the reality, such is the nature of boundless and abundant love contained within it Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Blue canary in the alley by the lightswitch, who watches over you?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-29 11:04, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 02:14, Dreadnought wrote:

All of the Pauline Corinthian letters bare St. Paul's signature and seal.



Since there are no known original copies of Mr. Paul's letters this is conjecture on your part. They very well may have been signed by him and sealed (most important documents were) but since what we find in the Bible is copies of copies of copies we cannot be certain of exactly what was in the original letters. All we have to work from are the early fragments of the texts that survived. The earliest of these contain no command that women remain quiet in church. So historians and textual critics conclude that this statement was not in Paul's original letters.


The copies of the letterswe have, that include the conclusion, bare his signature and seal. And you are not quoting all historians and textural critics. As as said in my paper, many modern critics dismiss the patristic writings.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

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Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 01:32, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-30 00:53, mastermindreader wrote:

Please advise where we can find Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's original and complete handwritten Gospels. HINT- They don't exist- all we have are copies made by scribes.



Also remember that when Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were penned they weren't known as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those names were added much later-- by a second century bishop if I remember right. Contrary to popular opinion they weren't written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John either. Their authorship remains a mystery.


Again, see the Patristic Fathers and their writings, notably Irenaeus and Papias.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
stoneunhinged
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Is this a religious thread? Might I post something about my own religion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7kLX1PaZA8&feature=related
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 12:19, Dreadnought wrote:

The copies of the letterswe have, that include the conclusion, bare his signature and seal.



Source please. I'd love to see the actual signature of Paul himself.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
critter
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"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Jeff J.
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I was following this post a little while back, but a family issue caused me to lose track. Instead of my reading a whole lot of pages, can someone tell me if the question was ever answered? Smile
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2012-06-30 18:06, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
I was following this post a little while back, but a family issue caused me to lose track. Instead of my reading a whole lot of pages, can someone tell me if the question was ever answered? Smile


No.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Jeff J.
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I didn't figure. I just thought I'd ask. To avoid confusion, my screen name was changed since I've been away. My old s/n was "Jeff The Unamazing Hack".
The great Gumbini
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Kam,

Symbolic? Oh my gosh---ABSOLUTELY not Kam. The "Line" The Messiah MUST come from is LITERAL. The LIFE the Messiah MUST live is LITERAL. The DEATH The Messiah MUST die is literal. There are NO prophecies I repeat there are NO prophecies Kam that were directed at the coming Messiah that were symbolic.

As far as the claims made about the Burning Bush? We know The Bible says "God called to him from the midst of the bush". Why someone would claim to be this voice I have no idea. I do know satan has tried to make himself God as well and it is not boding well for him. Let me say as well that many beliefs have come after the Bible and some come mighty close to saying the same thing but that little difference goes a long way (off track). Also I'm not catholic I just believe in God and His Word. I go to Calvary Chapel and have found their teachings to be very very Biblical Based.

Also not only is Paul a Historical figure but he too met Jesus when Paul was called Saul. You also have the writings of Josephus who talks about Jesus. And I'm sure had the Temple NOT been destroyed in A.D.70 we would have the actual birth record of Jesus (records).

So Kam please read a little of the prophecies and you will see the big deal is the prophecies were SPECIFIC and JESUS SPECIFICALLY FULFILLED them---that is the big deal. BTW if Jesus did not fulfill them then these prophecies could not be fulfilled today. And finally Kam I have made the Bible my starting foundation---it has NEVER failed to guide me. I fall in love with God more and more each day and He and I become closer each day. So without wanting to offend anyone when someone says anything that goes against what is written I dismiss that as not being true and cling to what Gods Word says. The deeper you STUDY the Bible the more you will what it is saying is true. Jesus said "When the blind lead the blind they fall into the same ditch". KNOW whom you follow.

Did you know there are more manuscripts of the New Testament that actually help to preserve it then there are for ANY OTHER ancient writings? God preserves His Word and His people.


Good magic to all,


Eric
critter
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Travelling in a fried-out combie/ on a hippie trail head full of zombie/ I met a strange lady/ she made me nervous/ she took me in and gave me breakfast...

Everybody!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
mastermindreader
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"Also not only is Paul a Historical figure but he too met Jesus when Paul was called Saul."

Er- this doesn't really support the historicity argument at all. You forgot to mention that Paul claimed to have had a VISION of Jesus. Jesus had been crucified long before Paul entered the picture.

More convincing as to Jesus historicity is that Paul DID apparently meet many of the original apostles as well as Jesus brother James.

You see, Eric, you keep trying to use the Bible to prove itself. Historical analysis doesn't work that way. Nor does it make for very persuasive argument. NO document is self proving except for the fact of its own physical existence as a document.
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