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The great Gumbini
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I believe Paul lived a life that would convince even the most skeptic person that he did in fact meet the resurrected Jesus as he claimed. His life was a testament to this meeting. My point is here is a historical figure who demonstrates by his life that he did in fact meet Jesus.


Good magic to all,


Eric
tommy
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If a document can tell a lie about itself then how come it can't tell the truth about itself?

A counterfeit dollar says it is a dollar, which is a lie about itself, a real dollar says it is dollar, which is the truth about itself. Is the dollar to be trusted more than the bible to tell the truth?

Do you beieve in the dollar?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 21:56, The great Gumbini wrote:

I believe Paul lived a life that would convince even the most skeptic person that he did in fact meet the resurrected Jesus as he claimed.



Well obviously not. I am a skeptic and I don't for a minute believe that Saul met the resurrected Jesus. He might have believed that he had an encounter with him. But there are also people who claim to have been abducted by aliens, seen bigfoot and had lunch last week with Elvis. I have no reason to believe any of these claims without sufficent evidence to support them.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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On 2012-06-30 22:02, tommy wrote:
If a document can tell a lie about itself then how come it can't tell the truth about itself?

A counterfeit dollar says it is a dollar, which is a lie about itself, a real dollar says it is dollar, which is the truth about itself. Is the dollar to be trusted more than the bible to tell the truth?

Do you beieve in the dollar?


Remind me never to borrow a dollar from you.

I have a book that says Spiderman is real. Do you believe that Ol' Webhead exists? If not, why not? I bet I could even come up with pictures and movies of Spiderman. Why do you deny his existence? Are you one of thse Aspidermanists?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tommy
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You none believers can send me all the dollars you don't believe. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
critter
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There once was a man from Nantucket...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Payne
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On 2012-06-30 21:47, mastermindreader wrote:

More convincing as to Jesus historicity is that Paul DID apparently meet many of the original apostles as well as Jesus brother James.



Yes, but Paul also claims to have met a dead guy on his way to Damascus. So his reliability as a witness is already in question Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 22:18, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-30 22:02, tommy wrote:
If a document can tell a lie about itself then how come it can't tell the truth about itself?

A counterfeit dollar says it is a dollar, which is a lie about itself, a real dollar says it is dollar, which is the truth about itself. Is the dollar to be trusted more than the bible to tell the truth?

Do you beieve in the dollar?


Remind me never to borrow a dollar from you.

I have a book that says Spiderman is real. Do you believe that Ol' Webhead exists? If not, why not? I bet I could even come up with pictures and movies of Spiderman. Why do you deny his existence? Are you one of thse Aspidermanists?


Got a better one;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarzan_Aliv......reystoke

Same guy wrote a biography of Doc Savage, claiming in fact that they were related along with many of the heroes and villains of the 30s.

I believe in God, and Jesus and in what he said. But I keep it a matter of personal belief.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
The great Gumbini
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Payne,

Well you might "believe" that you are a skeptic---honestly Payne how can we tell if that is true. Maybe you believe you are when in fact you are not. You seem more like a seeker than a skeptic. But maybe I just believe that is the impression I'm getting from you?

Paul on the other hand was beaten, thrown in jail, and shipwrecked because of what he "believed". Now look back a few pages do you remember what I wrote about "Belief"(Believing) and Faith? They are ACTION words. Paul was beaten and all these other things because he DID encounter Jesus (NOT DEAD) alive! Payne why in the world would Paul leave his top spot with the Jews and say such things that would cause him such distress if they were not true? Wealth? No he never became wealthy. Attention? He had enough of that already. Crazy? No he went on to write some of the most quoted and loved passages ever. Payne why? What did he stand to gain? The only logical answer is he BELIEVED (remember ACTION word). And let me ask all of you this---What did Jesus do that is so hard to accept? That He loved all of us so much and died for us? Yes that is hard to grasp I agree---but what if that's what He did? You know this world is not getting better folks. Each day we are just closer and closer to people wanting to kill one another and soon there will be the wars spoken of in Scripture. The tree is baring all the fruit that has been growing for awhile. I don't expect a full blown Jesus movement from this thread. But I will with all of my heart ask this of you. Give it one more try. Maybe give the Bible one more scan. For those of you who have not yet read it---give it a try. Look if you believe Jesus is not the Messiah then at worst you will have spent some wasted time but you would still pick up so good tid bits. Now if while you give it one more try you happen to see things maybe in a different light---who knows you may just get some answers to those deep down questions that we all get now and then. I'll go one step further. If you will read the Bible I will read a book you chose that you feel has the answers. For those of you who know me you know I normally do not read other religious material. I did when I first the Lord into my heart but it just did not add up for me like the Scriptures. To be honest when I was 11-13 I was in the Bahai faith (Kam I know you did not see that cuming). I would sit in and listen and I enjoyed the teachings. I decided that Judaism was more for me. But once I started to read the Scriptures I was so in love with Christianity that today I could not leave it. It's like I like to say imagine being in a row boat and rowing over half way to a destination. You get tired and you may want to turn back---but you know if you keep on it will be easier, faster and more rewarding. That is what I have with God and the Bible. It's real and the best part about it is it is for ALL who will turn to Him. And you don't have to do anything---He did it all. Just thank Him and and say "If you are real I'm yours". He will do the rest. Now who else will give you such a deal? I can see it can be hard to believe---but believe me looking back on my life it was a lot harder not too. Row, row, row your boat...


Good magic to all,


Eric
Payne
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On 2012-07-01 02:24, The great Gumbini wrote:

Payne why? What did he stand to gain? The only logical answer is he BELIEVED



As I've said before people believe all sorts of things. Doesn't make them true. Even if you're willing to die for them

The Heavens Gate Cult died for their beliefs. Didn't make them true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_G......s_group)

So did many of the Followers of Jim Jones. They too were mistaken in their beliefs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_jones

Joesph Smith was persecuted and too died for his beliefs. Do you accept Mormonism as the true religion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith

What did any of these folk stand to gain? What makes their beliefs any different than Paul's?

I have no doubt that Paul believed fervently that he had an excounter with Christ. Doesn't mean that he actually did.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 14:57, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-30 12:19, Dreadnought wrote:

The copies of the letterswe have, that include the conclusion, bare his signature and seal.



Source please. I'd love to see the actual signature of Paul himself.


You don't need proof, just blind faith. Just ask the pink Unicorn that lives in my basement.
LobowolfXXX
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If one only believed things that had been proven, one wouldn't have many beliefs.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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Yes correct Lobo Smile

......and therefore what is the evolutionary rationale behind being able to believe?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 21:33, The great Gumbini wrote:
Kam,

Symbolic? Oh my gosh---ABSOLUTELY not Kam. The "Line" The Messiah MUST come from is LITERAL. The LIFE the Messiah MUST live is LITERAL. The DEATH The Messiah MUST die is literal. There are NO prophecies I repeat there are NO prophecies Kam that were directed at the coming Messiah that were symbolic.

As far as the claims made about the Burning Bush? We know The Bible says "God called to him from the midst of the bush". Why someone would claim to be this voice I have no idea. I do know satan has tried to make himself God as well and it is not boding well for him. Let me say as well that many beliefs have come after the Bible and some come mighty close to saying the same thing but that little difference goes a long way (off track). Also I'm not catholic I just believe in God and His Word. I go to Calvary Chapel and have found their teachings to be very very Biblical Based.

Also not only is Paul a Historical figure but he too met Jesus when Paul was called Saul. You also have the writings of Josephus who talks about Jesus. And I'm sure had the Temple NOT been destroyed in A.D.70 we would have the actual birth record of Jesus (records).

So Kam please read a little of the prophecies and you will see the big deal is the prophecies were SPECIFIC and JESUS SPECIFICALLY FULFILLED them---that is the big deal. BTW if Jesus did not fulfill them then these prophecies could not be fulfilled today. And finally Kam I have made the Bible my starting foundation---it has NEVER failed to guide me. I fall in love with God more and more each day and He and I become closer each day. So without wanting to offend anyone when someone says anything that goes against what is written I dismiss that as not being true and cling to what Gods Word says. The deeper you STUDY the Bible the more you will what it is saying is true. Jesus said "When the blind lead the blind they fall into the same ditch". KNOW whom you follow.

Did you know there are more manuscripts of the New Testament that actually help to preserve it then there are for ANY OTHER ancient writings? God preserves His Word and His people.


Good magic to all,


Eric


Eric my friend Smile

If the prophecies pointing to Jesus as being the Messiah, were so clearly written and so "literally" fulfilled why on earth are there so many Jews in the world?? Surely they would all have been believers of Christ instantly.....

I think you would benefit in seeing it from the "Jewish" perspective and realizing how MUCH they have misinterpreted their own Scripture.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/

.....which now brings me to the reality that, just like the Pharisees did to Jesus in His first coming, the Abrahamic religious world are rejecting Him in His second coming. For what?? Because He has a different name? (Rev 3:12)

I love Jesus more than you love Jesus my friend. His faith has reached its full maturity and I have a feeling not one Christian has read His message to the Christian world.

It's fine Smile it really is, faith and works comes into it, I guess. If you're just not willing to listen to His Message, then He is Self-Sufficient.

"Blessed the slumberer who is awakened by My Breeze. Blessed the lifeless one who is quickened through My reviving breaths. Blessed the eye that is solaced by gazing at My beauty. Blessed the wayfarer who directeth his steps towards the Tabernacle of My glory and majesty. Blessed the distressed one who seeketh refuge beneath the shadow of My canopy. Blessed the sore athirst who hasteneth to the soft-flowing waters of My loving-kindness....". Baha'u'llah

Eric, let me ask you, what is it that distinguishes a true prophet from a false prophet?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Eric, having just read your post to Payne, I'm interested to know how you were a Baha'i from age 11-13?

The Bahai Faith does not accept membership into it from anyone under 15.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:22, kambiz wrote:

......and therefore what is the evolutionary rationale behind being able to believe?

Kam


Possibilities:
-To reduce the fear of death and aging. (I think Sapolsky wrote about this.)
-To reinforce the power of a leader(s) aligned with the population's religion.
-To provide rituals to reinforce bonding and status within the community (rights of passage, etc.)
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 12:51, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:22, kambiz wrote:

......and therefore what is the evolutionary rationale behind being able to believe?

Kam


Possibilities:
-To reduce the fear of death and aging. (I think Sapolsky wrote about this.)
-To reinforce the power of a leader(s) aligned with the population's religion.
-To provide rituals to reinforce bonding and status within the community (rights of passage, etc.)


Smile Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:45, kambiz wrote:

The Bahai Faith does not accept membership into it from anyone under 15.



You must be at least this high to ride the Bahai?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
R.S.
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On 2012-07-01 02:24, The great Gumbini wrote:
Maybe give the Bible one more scan. For those of you who have not yet read it---give it a try.
Eric


This is good advice. I too always encourage people to read the bible - it's the best way to promote atheism!


Ron
:)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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And here I thought it was only the theists who cared about convincing others to adopt their position.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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