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R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:09, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If one only believed things that had been proven, one wouldn't have many beliefs.



Right. But is this a problem? Let's hold to be true those things that can be reasonably proven, discard those things that can be shown to be false, and reserve judgement on all the rest.


Ron


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
link8822
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I would rather be here by accident. The fact that it's such a rare accident makes our existence special. If it had an explanation, such as a supreme being creating us, then I feel it loses the inherent mysteriousness of life...but I supposed being here by accident is also a vague type of explanation. I think I'd rather not know & wonder. Smile
R.S.
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On 2012-07-01 16:35, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And here I thought it was only the theists who cared about convincing others to adopt their position.



Really?? Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? Sam Harris? Christopher Hitchens? To name a few.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:57, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:35, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And here I thought it was only the theists who cared about convincing others to adopt their position.



Really?? Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? Sam Harris? Christopher Hitchens? To name a few.


Ron


Nah...I forget sometimes that irony translates poorly over the Internet.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:50, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:09, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If one only believed things that had been proven, one wouldn't have many beliefs.



Right. But is this a problem? Let's hold to be true those things that can be reasonably proven, discard those things that can be shown to be false, and reserve judgement on all the rest.


Ron


Ron


I have no argument with any of this (though I think "reasonably supported" is a better phrase, and would add that what sounds "reasonable" varies from person to person).

The "problem" as I see it is when some people think that it's only the other side that has unproven beliefs - when they don't realize that when they jump from "our best guess based on the available information" to "proven fact," they're doing metaphysics.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 17:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:57, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:35, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And here I thought it was only the theists who cared about convincing others to adopt their position.



Really?? Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? Sam Harris? Christopher Hitchens? To name a few.


Ron


Nah...I forget sometimes that irony translates poorly over the Internet.


:)
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 17:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:57, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:35, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And here I thought it was only the theists who cared about convincing others to adopt their position.



Really?? Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? Sam Harris? Christopher Hitchens? To name a few.


Ron


Nah...I forget sometimes that irony translates poorly over the Internet.


Exactly.

PS - You're just now noticing, after 37 pages, that the atheists in this thread (much like the theists) actually care about convincing others of their position?


Ron
:)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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Nope...knew it long before the thread started.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 17:07, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:50, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:09, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If one only believed things that had been proven, one wouldn't have many beliefs.



Right. But is this a problem? Let's hold to be true those things that can be reasonably proven, discard those things that can be shown to be false, and reserve judgement on all the rest.


Ron


Ron


I have no argument with any of this (though I think "reasonably supported" is a better phrase, and would add that what sounds "reasonable" varies from person to person).

The "problem" as I see it is when some people think that it's only the other side that has unproven beliefs - when they don't realize that when they jump from "our best guess based on the available information" to "proven fact," they're doing metaphysics.


I'll go with "reasonably supported" as well, thanks. And yes, "reasonable" does vary from person to person, but scientific tools and methods should (somewhat) serve to narrow the parameters for what may be considered reasonable.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
kambiz
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On 2012-07-01 15:53, Payne wrote:
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On 2012-07-01 11:45, kambiz wrote:

The Bahai Faith does not accept membership into it from anyone under 15.



You must be at least this high to ride the Bahai?



I have no idea what this means Payne, but it sounds funny Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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On 2012-06-29 02:00, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 01:51, kambiz wrote:


How does the average Christian know what is the symbolic meanings in the Bible, and which are literal?

Kam


That's why there are Priests to explain it to them. Unlike Protestant churches, the Catholic Church does not encourage individual interpretation of the Bible. In fact, until the late 19 Century the Church discouraged Catholics from even reading the Bible on their own, lest it be misunderstood.


Again, the answers to all of these questions from a Catholic perspective can be found in the Catechism.



Hi Bob, Ive been meaning to address this since the time you wrote it, but the discussion was getting too time intensive for me, so I left it until now Smile

The fact that the Catholic Church does not encourage individual interpretation of the Bible is, by your very won definitions, the biggest totalitarian regime in global history, don't you think?

To deny the masses for such a long time the opportunity to read the very Word of God for themselves, and amongst groups of similar minded people, to share their understanding with one another, is in my opinion the opposite to what is the Plan of God in this time and age. The brain washing that has ensued has contributed to what no longer is the pure religion of Jesus.

I encourage a thorough review of how a fair chunk of the clergy, has in the past (and even currently) in all Abrahamic religions, been the source of "anything but" a manifestation of the "Holy Spirit".....to assign their assertion of power on the masses as a manifestation of the Spirit that emanates from our Creator is a blasphemy of the highest order...

Sorry, but I had to share that, and I hope it comes as a reminder of how people need to be encouraged to think for themselves Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The great Gumbini
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Kam,

that's why I stated I sat in a listened to the teachings. My parents went and I tagged along. I enjoyed the teachings but for me it was almost a "hippie" feel and I just did not feel all that moved. So it was not for me. Years later I asked the Lord into my heart. I have not looked back since. What is the difference between a REAL prophet and a false one? The Bible (again) tells us. If the thing comes to pass that the prophet prophecies then he is a prophet and if it does not come to pass the Bible says he is not to be taken as a prophet. The Bible (to answer another of your questions) says the Jews were blinded to the truth so gentiles were grafted in and Salvation was extended to the gentiles. At first it was for the Jews only---then extended to the gentiles. But Kam remember the first ones to follow and accept Jesus were Jews. The Bible also teaches that false prophets will come into the world preaching ANOTHER JESUS. As Christians we are not to believe them. Jesus said "It is finished" from the cross. Kam there is one MAJOR difference between Jesus and the founder of the Bahai faith. The tomb of Jesus is empty. No Kam although there were many wise and loving men in the world there was and is only ONE Jesus. He said He will return one day---but that has not happened yet. So now Kam where does that leave the Bahai's or other religions? Well that is the question only those in them can answer. You see the Bahai faith IS NOT Biblical. If Jesus was going to make a quick trip back and change His name and His message He would have said so. Look at the world religions today. There is sharp differences. The Bahai faith says that they ALL are right. Yet there is no unity in their teachings when compared to other religions. So is God divided? Certainly not. Let GOD be true and every man a lier. Kam one day I looked hard at my faith. I actually tried to see if I could disprove it. I was unable to do that. I recommend you do the the same. One day you (and I) and everyone will indeed stand before God and we will be required to give an answer. If the founder of your faith is Jesus in another body then by all means get a Bible and see Jesus from Scripture and compare the two of them. You say you love Jesus more than I do. Ok then get to know Him as well as I do. Read the Scriptures for in them you have your Salvation.


Good magic to all,


Eric
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 21:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 02:00, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-29 01:51, kambiz wrote:


How does the average Christian know what is the symbolic meanings in the Bible, and which are literal?

Kam


That's why there are Priests to explain it to them. Unlike Protestant churches, the Catholic Church does not encourage individual interpretation of the Bible. In fact, until the late 19 Century the Church discouraged Catholics from even reading the Bible on their own, lest it be misunderstood.


Again, the answers to all of these questions from a Catholic perspective can be found in the Catechism.



Hi Bob, Ive been meaning to address this since the time you wrote it, but the discussion was getting too time intensive for me, so I left it until now Smile

The fact that the Catholic Church does not encourage individual interpretation of the Bible is, by your very won definitions, the biggest totalitarian regime in global history, don't you think?

To deny the masses for such a long time the opportunity to read the very Word of God for themselves, and amongst groups of similar minded people, to share their understanding with one another, is in my opinion the opposite to what is the Plan of God in this time and age. The brain washing that has ensued has contributed to what no longer is the pure religion of Jesus.

I encourage a thorough review of how a fair chunk of the clergy, has in the past (and even currently) in all Abrahamic religions, been the source of "anything but" a manifestation of the "Holy Spirit".....to assign their assertion of power on the masses as a manifestation of the Spirit that emanates from our Creator is a blasphemy of the highest order...

Sorry, but I had to share that, and I hope it comes as a reminder of how people need to be encouraged to think for themselves Smile

Kam


You've completely missed the point I was making. The fact is that the US doesn't encourage individual interpretation of the Constitution either. That doesn't make us the biggest totalitarian state in history, does it?

The Church doesn't throw people out for thinking on their own. Nor does it force people to be members.
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So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


So, which one is "enforcing their understanding on others":

"not encouraging" an activity, or

"acting as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and [enacting] such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples...adjudicat[ing] and deliver[ing] its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system"
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:11, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


So, which one is "enforcing their understanding on others":

"not encouraging" an activity, or

"acting as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and [enacting] such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples...adjudicat[ing] and deliver[ing] its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system"



Lobo, as I've said to you before, the Baha'i Faith is not going to be responsible for this supposed "doomsday" scenario that it has prophesied. The situation is only going to happen through natural evolution of global governance, and to be honest, the way things are going right now, its not going to be too far off the mark. As I have said, my personal feeling is that it will take 5 generations from now, to see the development of an EU type scenario, extended globally. The Baha'i Faith is not responsible for this. As I say we are developing our own community, and everything I can see within it is good, it still needs to mature, however the intent is pure, noble and reflective of good will....

So having said that "again" to you, how is your post relevant?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


Kam-

I thought you were a reasonable guy. Why are you putting words into my mouth? What did I say about "enforcement?" And why do you presume I'm taking a position? I simply made an observation of fact-
The Church did not, until the 19th Century, encourage people to read the Bible on their own.

That isn't a statement of opinion.

The REASON it wasn't encouraged is because the Bible can be easily misinterpreted by those not familiar of its literary conventions, allegorical passages, etc. (Not to mention that many Catholics in centuries past could barely read and understand simple text, let alone understand the often times complex language of the Bible.)
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What I don't understand, Kam, is why you think the idea of an eventual global society with a common government is an idea that is somehow unique to Baha'i.

It's not.

Gene Roddenberry foresaw the same thing. It is not something that will happen because of any kind of divine revelation. If it happens it will be because modern communications and interactions between the world's peoples will eventually render separate nation states obsolete. Or not, as the case may be.

Religion, I predict, will have very little to do with it.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 23:41, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


Kam-

I thought you were a reasonable guy. Why are you putting words into my mouth? What did I say about "enforcement?" And why do you presume I'm taking a position? I simply made an observation of fact-
The Church did not, until the 19th Century, encourage people to read the Bible on their own.

That isn't a statement of opinion.

The REASON it wasn't encouraged is because the Bible can be easily misinterpreted by those not familiar of its literary conventions, allegorical passages, etc. (Not to mention that many Catholics in centuries past could barely read and understand simple text, let alone understand the often times complex language of the Bible.)



HEYYYY!!!! Smile Smile

I'm trying to be reasonable. I think you took a position when you stated, repeatedly, that the Catholic Church does not take a literal interpretation of the Bible. It implied that you were privy to that knowledge, and you implied that it aws knowledge based on evidence. that's taking a position.

I'm trying my best to be reasonable Bob, we are friends, my intent is in no way to disrespect you, amd I hope you are not feeling disrespected, beacuse my comments are not personal attacks, but rather an inquisition into the ideas that you present.

Is that being unreasonable?

With warm intentions Smile (how warm intentions comes across on a forum, I don't know, but I feel love towards you Bob, so if you feel it brother, sing it for me Smile )
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:20, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:11, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


So, which one is "enforcing their understanding on others":

"not encouraging" an activity, or

"acting as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and [enacting] such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples...adjudicat[ing] and deliver[ing] its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system"



Lobo, as I've said to you before, the Baha'i Faith is not going to be responsible for this supposed "doomsday" scenario that it has prophesied. The situation is only going to happen through natural evolution of global governance, and to be honest, the way things are going right now, its not going to be too far off the mark. As I have said, my personal feeling is that it will take 5 generations from now, to see the development of an EU type scenario, extended globally. The Baha'i Faith is not responsible for this. As I say we are developing our own community, and everything I can see within it is good, it still needs to mature, however the intent is pure, noble and reflective of good will....

So having said that "again" to you, how is your post relevant?

Kam


How is even the suggestion of totalitarianism or "enforcing [an] understanding on others" relevant to a comment that a church "doesn't encourage" something?

Churches are largely unified bodies that have positions; those who disagree with too many of a church's tenets, or the most important ones, would probably be better served bya different church.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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