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mastermindreader
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Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.
kambiz
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That's fair Bob. My intention wasn't to misinterpret either Smile (and I am human, I can misunderstand things, which I may have in your posts)

All I'm asking for is your position on it though, and you seem to avoid the question. I asked if you think its ok for people looking for comfort in their lives, or whatever reason a person may join a church, to be told how to read the Bible, which bits are literal, which bits are symbolic. And their (the clergy's) interpretations have been wrong on several occasions. Is it ok for a church to practice such things, from your perspective?

Historically, how has the so-called "authoritative" interpretation of God's Word gone down in terms of promoting and fuelling or inciting a specific action?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:20, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:11, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


So, which one is "enforcing their understanding on others":

"not encouraging" an activity, or

"acting as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and [enacting] such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples...adjudicat[ing] and deliver[ing] its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system"



Lobo, as I've said to you before, the Baha'i Faith is not going to be responsible for this supposed "doomsday" scenario that it has prophesied. The situation is only going to happen through natural evolution of global governance, and to be honest, the way things are going right now, its not going to be too far off the mark. As I have said, my personal feeling is that it will take 5 generations from now, to see the development of an EU type scenario, extended globally. The Baha'i Faith is not responsible for this. As I say we are developing our own community, and everything I can see within it is good, it still needs to mature, however the intent is pure, noble and reflective of good will....

So having said that "again" to you, how is your post relevant?

Kam


How is even the suggestion of totalitarianism or "enforcing [an] understanding on others" relevant to a comment that a church "doesn't encourage" something?

Churches are largely unified bodies that have positions; those who disagree with too many of a church's tenets, or the most important ones, would probably be better served bya different church.



So how is it totalitarian, when all the worlds nations "agree" to being governed by a world government, the trustees of which.........etc etc?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 13:15, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 12:51, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 11:22, kambiz wrote:

......and therefore what is the evolutionary rationale behind being able to believe?

Kam


Possibilities:
-To reduce the fear of death and aging. (I think Sapolsky wrote about this.)
-To reinforce the power of a leader(s) aligned with the population's religion.
-To provide rituals to reinforce bonding and status within the community (rights of passage, etc.)


Smile Smile


Glad you liked it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
mastermindreader
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As long as it doesn't hurt anyone* a Church or it's members can interpret Scripture any way they like. Freedom of religion.

Some people find comfort in the Catholic Church and defer to its wisdom in matters of faith and the interpretation of Scripture. Some don't and find their comfort in other denominations. As Lobo noted, in a free society it's entirely up to the individual.

I'm not avoiding giving any answers here as I'm not an apologist for any religion, even my own.

*Because of course, "authoritative interpretations" have often led to disaster - witness the teachings of Jim Jones and David Koresh, for example.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:47, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:20, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:11, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-01 22:01, kambiz wrote:
So you think its cool for the clergy to interpret the Scripture and enforce their understanding on others who "volunteer" themselves into a Church?

Kam


So, which one is "enforcing their understanding on others":

"not encouraging" an activity, or

"acting as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and [enacting] such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples...adjudicat[ing] and deliver[ing] its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system"



Lobo, as I've said to you before, the Baha'i Faith is not going to be responsible for this supposed "doomsday" scenario that it has prophesied. The situation is only going to happen through natural evolution of global governance, and to be honest, the way things are going right now, its not going to be too far off the mark. As I have said, my personal feeling is that it will take 5 generations from now, to see the development of an EU type scenario, extended globally. The Baha'i Faith is not responsible for this. As I say we are developing our own community, and everything I can see within it is good, it still needs to mature, however the intent is pure, noble and reflective of good will....

So having said that "again" to you, how is your post relevant?

Kam


How is even the suggestion of totalitarianism or "enforcing [an] understanding on others" relevant to a comment that a church "doesn't encourage" something?

Churches are largely unified bodies that have positions; those who disagree with too many of a church's tenets, or the most important ones, would probably be better served bya different church.



So how is it totalitarian, when all the worlds nations "agree" to being governed by a world government, the trustees of which.........etc etc?

Kam


But this isn't a relevant question, right, because the world government has nothing to do with any religion?

However, I think there are two distinct differences:

Individuals join, or do not join, churches as they see fit; on other hand, a very select few representatives make governmental decisions that bind hundreds of millions of people. I suspect that there are many people in Europe who live in countries they wish would not have joined the EU. That decision was made for them. On the other hand, Catholics, or Baha'i, or (insert your favorite religion here) who believe that the church does not adequately represent their views are free not to join that church.

Second, just look at the verbs - "Not encouraging" vs. "controlling resources," "adjusting relationships," "regulating life," "enacting" laws, and "delivering compulsory and final verdicts." If you're going to tell me in all sincerity and intellectual honesty that you don't see a relevant difference there, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:47, kambiz wrote:

So how is it totalitarian, when all the worlds nations "agree" to being governed by a world government, the trustees of which.........etc etc?


By the same logic, how is it totalitarian when members of the Catholic Church agree to be guided by its tenets? The big difference, of course, is that people can just leave the Church if they don't like it. It's pretty hard, on the other hand to "leave" the jurisdiction of a "world government." That's why the latter is totalitarian and the former isn't.
The great Gumbini
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How odd that all would guess "where" this will happen and when. Ok let me say this again. The Place---The Middle East (Just look at what has happened this past 2 weeks) the time---well we are off to a fast start so lets just say it could happen anytime---and it can. The stage as it were has been set. And here is the kicker. Christians are not causing any of this to happen. Israel wants to exist and now all their neighbors just won't have it. Kam I read your post and quote. Would you agree it is vague? Now please compare that to Ezek: 36-40. Get a map (or look it up on the internet) and see what the current names are of the places mentioned. You will see the names are in the Middle East lining up against Israel. The Bible NAMES names and places. That is the difference between the Bible and other writings. Israel will be attacked and those who attack her will be destroyed by God. Israel will spend months burying all the bodies (not Israel bodies btw). Israel only wants to exist. It does not look to attack but it will defend itself. When it can no longer do that God steps in (this will show Israel once again it is God who wins the battles and not by our strength). God protects His people.

Let me add one more thing. It is my strong belief that God created man and man created religion. I have not found a religion yet that is perfect. I also believe I never will. I do however believe a relationship with God is rewarding and it is what God wants with us. God is showing us with Israel that He will protect them. As I have stated before Israel is the ONLY Nation to have been fully exiled from it's land and has come back to be a Nation again in the same land. That took God's working it out. It was prophesied in the Scriptures. Also prophesied is the attack on Israel. Israel's enemies just cant stand for Israel to exist. But God shows in His Word that Israel will indeed exist.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Guys, from my understanding, the evolutionary development of thsi global government will be to foster the wellbeing of the vast majority, to reduce the chances of extremes of injustice, prejudice, and wealth. These extremes are evidently present today. What is the solution, to sit there and tell everyone "I'm not responsible?"

There was a time when racism was legalized in the US. Is it totalitarian to illegalize it? What about that poor guy who doesn't like it being illegal, he still wants to burn the "coloured guy". Come on guys, I cant be any more clear. There are some things that are evidently unjust. At the moment there are some governemnts that do something about within their own country. There are however some countries that have NO IDEA, and don't care. The reality is, we should all care....how much "care" we show will be up to all those who want to get involved....

Kam,
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Eric, I'm stil drafting a response to your points you raised (and there were many) in your last post LOL!!!

However, you now mention I was vague in one of my posts, which one was that?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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A select group's ideas about "the well-being of the majority" will always be in tension with the individual liberties of the minority. Where that balance should be drawn, in my opinion, is a question for local, not global, governments. We in the USA will strike that balance (for the most part) at the city and state level within the framework of our Constitution. The rest of y'all, do what you want.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:21, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The rest of y'all, do what you want.


Just that statement there Lobo, proves to me that we will have to agree to disagree Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:25, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:21, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The rest of y'all, do what you want.


Just that statement there Lobo, proves to me that we will have to agree to disagree Smile

Kam


On a number of small-scale matters, I'm sure we have areas of agreement, but it was certainly apparent to me long ago that we were agreeing to disagree on the big scale. As pointed out by Bob and myself some time ago, the global government you expect and welcome would come at the expense of national sovereignty, and I would always opt for sovereignty, given that choice.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:37, mastermindreader wrote:
Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.


Bob, how do you know that for sure? Isn't it possible that things just happened and there was no magical person in the sky that made it all happpen?
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:45, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:37, mastermindreader wrote:
Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.

Bob, how do you know that for sure? Isn't it possible that things just happened and there was no magical person in the sky that made it all happpen?

Isn't it possible that when Bob talks about a power far greater than he that that may simply be the power that made things just happen? Bob didn't mention a magical person - merely a power.
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:50, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:45, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:37, mastermindreader wrote:
Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.

Bob, how do you know that for sure? Isn't it possible that things just happened and there was no magical person in the sky that made it all happpen?

Isn't it possible that when Bob talks about a power far greater than he that that may simply be the power that made things just happen? Bob didn't mention a magical person - merely a power.


Let's be real. When someone talks about a "power", they are talking about an invisble being in the sky.
LobowolfXXX
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S2000 is a mathematician. When he talks about a "power," he's talking about an exponent.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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If you only knew the power of the dark side...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
S2000 is a mathematician. When he talks about a "power," he's talking about an exponent.


I always sucked at math. I'm still trying to remember why I got a degree in physics.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
S2000 is a mathematician. When he talks about a "power," he's talking about an exponent.

;)

Apparently I'm supposed to limit my discussion to real exponents. I wonder if I have to limit myself to real bases as well.
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