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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 12:55, critter wrote:
Bob,
This article may clear up some of your misunderstandings Smile:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/enemies.html

Warning: It's pretty long.


But it's a very well written article and directly addresses many of the concerns that have been expressed on this thread by myself and others.

Thank you for posting it.
Jonathan Townsend
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From the article cited:
Quote:
The Baha’i Faith views the establishment of world unity as its primary mission, and this is believed to be dependent on the Baha’i Faith’s remaining united as a single religion that completely avoids the schisms that other world religions have experienced in their history. This has created anxiety about the articulation of dissent which, in turn, has resulted in severe limits imposed on individual free expression concerning Baha’i beliefs, community affairs, and institutional decisions. Hence, the Baha’i Faith places adherents in a psychological bind by simultaneously upholding liberal ideals, which attract intelligent and creative people, while at the same time exerting pressure towards obedience and conformity...


IMHO it's awkward (if not simply both abusive and hypocritical) to use spiritual concerns to make people incongruent to their own professed beliefs as regards the world, their lives and their neighbors.

Change the "B" word to other known real-world "isms" or political party names and get a feel for the issue yourself. If the shoe does not fit - perhaps you are better off aquitting. Smile

As it happens this argument was taken to one logical end by the folks at 2000AD where those who manage justice decided that life is a crime and the punishment is death. http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=26019.0
or perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Judges does not do the story justice but then again ... justice for whom?

Judge not lest ye be judged, eh?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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Smile I heard a fellow in court today say "I'm an honest man living in dishonest times."
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 14:55, tommy wrote:
:) I heard a fellow in court today say "I'm an honest man living in dishonest times."


I like that line! Did you use it when they called your case?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Smile No I was not in the lap of the gods today, just watching.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 16:25, tommy wrote:
:) No I was not in the lap of the gods today, just watching.


What religion lets you give lap dances to gods?

Ishtar dances... cue Sister Midnight?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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The religion of money I guess Jon.

Philip Coggan from the Economist magazine

COGGAN: Money is a bit like the end of Peter Pan where we’re all asked to clap if we believe in fairies, otherwise Tinker Bell will die. We show our faith in money every day by offering it in return for goods and services and getting it accepted, and that’s all an act of faith.

STONER SAUNDERS. So it’s just an illusion, so why on earth do we believe in it?

COGGAN: We believe in it because it works.

God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Lap dances for Mammon?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 15:31, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 14:55, tommy wrote:
:) I heard a fellow in court today say "I'm an honest man living in dishonest times."


I like that line! Did you use it when they called your case?


Don't try it. Judge's tend to lack a sense of humor.
critter
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Some of the artistic representations of Celtic Goddesses are gorgeous.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 11:24, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:45, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:37, mastermindreader wrote:
Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.


Bob, how do you know that for sure? Isn't it possible that things just happened and there was no magical person in the sky that made it all happpen?


Note that I carefully avoided use of any word that could imply a "magical person." I used the word "Power." And whatever it was/is, it's certainly bigger than I am and beyond my limited understanding.

I don't understand what you meant about us "agreeing to disagree" on religion. My "religion" is basically "Something happened to create the Universe. It's bigger than me and its existence speaks for itself. I don't know what it is, but I always hope for the best." Seriously, I imagine that even atheists would have a hard time arguing with that!

Beyond that, though, what's unreal about a "magical person?" I know lots of them!

:eek:


Hi Bob,

Isn't a God part of the "Deism" package?

de·ism (dzm, d-)
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


And isn't a "God" some sort of supreme being/person/entity? So strictly speaking, Deists do believe in a God and not just a "power", no? I guess I'm just looking for clarification of terms here. I have no quibbles with your position.

Thanks.

Ron
PS - As an atheist, I also take the view that "Something happened to create the Universe. It's bigger than me and its existence speaks for itself."
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 18:57, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 11:24, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:45, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:37, mastermindreader wrote:
Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.


Bob, how do you know that for sure? Isn't it possible that things just happened and there was no magical person in the sky that made it all happpen?


Note that I carefully avoided use of any word that could imply a "magical person." I used the word "Power." And whatever it was/is, it's certainly bigger than I am and beyond my limited understanding.

I don't understand what you meant about us "agreeing to disagree" on religion. My "religion" is basically "Something happened to create the Universe. It's bigger than me and its existence speaks for itself. I don't know what it is, but I always hope for the best." Seriously, I imagine that even atheists would have a hard time arguing with that!

Beyond that, though, what's unreal about a "magical person?" I know lots of them!

:eek:


Hi Bob,

Isn't a God part of the "Deism" package?

de·ism (dzm, d-)
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


And isn't a "God" some sort of supreme being/person/entity? So strictly speaking, Deists do believe in a God and not just a "power", no? I guess I'm just looking for clarification of terms here. I have no quibbles with your position.

Thanks.

Ron
PS - As an atheist, I also take the view that "Something happened to create the Universe. It's bigger than me and its existence speaks for itself."


What's your proof? Just saying something is so doesn't mean anything.
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:12, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 18:57, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 11:24, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 01:45, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 00:37, mastermindreader wrote:
Kam-

All of the Catholic positions I have given to you come directly from the Catechism and the history of the Church. They are not my positions, they are the Church's.

Observing that Catholics do not advocate for a literal interpretation of the entire Bible is NOT taking a position. Nor is my observation that the Church did not recommend individual reading of the Bible back in the 19th Century.

I know you weren't disrespecting me at all, Kam. You are just misinterpreting what I've said as my "taking a position." I didn't.

I'm a Deist remember? All I know for sure is that a Power far greater than I created the universe and everything in it.


Bob, how do you know that for sure? Isn't it possible that things just happened and there was no magical person in the sky that made it all happpen?


Note that I carefully avoided use of any word that could imply a "magical person." I used the word "Power." And whatever it was/is, it's certainly bigger than I am and beyond my limited understanding.

I don't understand what you meant about us "agreeing to disagree" on religion. My "religion" is basically "Something happened to create the Universe. It's bigger than me and its existence speaks for itself. I don't know what it is, but I always hope for the best." Seriously, I imagine that even atheists would have a hard time arguing with that!

Beyond that, though, what's unreal about a "magical person?" I know lots of them!

:eek:


Hi Bob,

Isn't a God part of the "Deism" package?

de·ism (dzm, d-)
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


And isn't a "God" some sort of supreme being/person/entity? So strictly speaking, Deists do believe in a God and not just a "power", no? I guess I'm just looking for clarification of terms here. I have no quibbles with your position.

Thanks.

Ron
PS - As an atheist, I also take the view that "Something happened to create the Universe. It's bigger than me and its existence speaks for itself."


What's your proof? Just saying something is so doesn't mean anything.


Proof of what??


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jeff J.
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Proof of some supernarural being that created everything. Supernatural claims require proof.
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:17, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Proof of some supernarural being that created everything. Supernatural claims require proof.


I never made that claim, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:20, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:17, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Proof of some supernarural being that created everything. Supernatural claims require proof.


I never made that claim, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

Ron


I may have misundersood your post. I thought it said you believed that there was a creator. Sorry if I was mistaken. We are having a bad storm here and my internet is all screwed up.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 12:49, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 12:08, kambiz wrote:
so it may answer several questions for those that have any interest in clearing up their misunderstandings


Kam-

Do you realize just how patronizing that sounds?


Hi Bob,

When some people resort to mocking, deriding and laughing at a religion which many think is a respectable belief system that contributes to society healthily and positively, I can only assume there is some misunderstandings. That's showing a healthy respect towards the mockers and deriders, don't you think. I could resort to calling them names and booing and hissing at them, but that would create too much concern.

Am I well out of line?

I never mock, deride, laugh at other peoples beliefs, so what has the Baha'i faith done to deserve mockery?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Jeff J.
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Nobody should mock a belief. I don't happen to believe, but I would never try to take someone's right to believe in anything they wish away.
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:25, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:20, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:17, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Proof of some supernarural being that created everything. Supernatural claims require proof.


I never made that claim, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

Ron


I may have misundersood your post. I thought it said you believed that there was a creator. Sorry if I was mistaken. We are having a bad storm here and my internet is all screwed up.


I see. Hope you weather that storm!

Ron
:)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-02 19:17, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Proof of some supernarural being that created everything. Supernatural claims require proof.


Of course they don't. No more than atheist's unproven claim "There is no God."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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