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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-03 16:02, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 15:03, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 08:28, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Actually, by definition, we are all atheists. We all don't have a belief in some god. If you don't believe in Thor, you are an atheist.

Um . . . no.

Atheism means a belief that no God(s) exist (alternatively, all God(s) don't exist), not that some particular God(s) don't exist.


You are picking and choosing your definition.


Old Scratch is correct, in a sense. Long ago the word "atheist" was often used by the Church to refer to anyone who subscribed to a different religious belief or did not accept the Christian God. Thus, Thomas Paine, who was a Deist and decidedly NOT an atheist (in fact he wrote "The Age of Reason" to stem the tide of atheism in France) was referred to by the Church as an atheist. (As were those they considered heretics.)

That definition, however, is archaic and is no longer in common use.

The most common definitions, and the ones I am using in my argument, are basically these:

Theist- Believes in God
Atheist- Believes there is no God
Agnostic- Is not sure if there is a God and/or feels that it is an issue beyond the scope of man's knowledge.

"Neo" or New Atheism is a term that describes much of the so-called "atheism" we see today.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

Interestingly, though, as I have noted before, even the arch atheist Richard Dawkins has conceded that a serious argument can be made the the existence of a deistic god:

Quote:
This week’s debate, however, was different because from the off Dawkins moved it onto safer territory– and at the very beginning made a most startling admission. He said:
A serious case could be made for a deistic God.

This was surely remarkable. Here was the arch-apostle of atheism, whose whole case is based on the assertion that believing in a creator of the universe is no different from believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, saying that a serious case can be made for the idea that the universe was brought into being by some kind of purposeful force. A creator.


For more see:

http://college-ethics.blogspot.com/2008/......tor.html

In other words, by the definitions I am using, the arch atheist himself is actually an agnostic whose primary case is against organized religion and non-scientific thought.



Good thoughts,
Andre Hagen
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The "God Particle"

There is an announcement coming up tomorrow regarding the possibility that the Higgs Boson (as the physicists call it) has been identified at CERN.

This would be better than 42 as an answer to life, the universe and everything!

Andre
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein
Jonathan Townsend
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On 2012-07-03 21:03, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
There is no God. (Which one you want? Jesus, Allah, Shiva, Xenu... )

He/She/They is/are not here.

Proof He is.


If information or a notion affects behavior - it's operationally real, it becomes a "that which" in our ongoing dialog about what's happening and how we relate to our experiences of what's happening. Since methods of recruitment/indoctrination and the political consequences of such are off bounds as topics at the Café - I have to leave off with "it's useful" as regards the notion of god(s).
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Jeff J.
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On 2012-07-03 21:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 20:20, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
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On
Of course they don't. No more than atheist's unproven claim "There is no God."


You are mistaken. We as atheists make no claims at all. All the claims are up to those who choose to hold supernatural beliefs.








Quote:
On 2012-07-03 21:03, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
There is no God. (Which one you want? Jesus, Allah, Shiva, Xenu... )

He/She/They is/are not here.





Quod erat demonstrandum


:)
acesover
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On 2012-07-03 18:33, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
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On 2012-06-10 00:05, acesover wrote:
Would you want there to be a Supreme Being or would you prefetr that we are here by one big accident?
...


You put yourself in a box there. Just one "creator/god" ? No oversight, comittees? How about many, many "gods" operating?

And more to my point, how could one distinguish any of these cases from any other case involving some, one, none at some given moment?


What? Smile
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acesover
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On 2012-07-03 18:41, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Supreme Being?

Aliens... I prefer Ancient Aliens myself. Smile


Hee, hee...Where did they come from? Who created them?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-04 21:59, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 18:41, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Supreme Being?

Aliens... I prefer Ancient Aliens myself. Smile


Hee, hee...Where did they come from? Who created them?


Let's posit that some of them are a few hundred thousand years ahead of us and make an offer to clean up our what they claim to be a "cargo cult" version of their True Faith. Will you tithe to them? Will you let go of what they assert are falshoods and crude misunderstandings of their Faith which somehow has not taken root correctly here? (history buffs will recall how 'other schools' were standardized not so long ago).

Hint: think Star Trek IV but with whales as the annointed ones.
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acesover
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On 2012-07-03 21:52, Andre Hagen wrote:
The "God Particle"

There is an announcement coming up tomorrow regarding the possibility that the Higgs Boson (as the physicists call it) has been identified at CERN.

This would be better than 42 as an answer to life, the universe and everything!

Andre


Seriously? The number 42? Its biggest claim to fame is Doougls Adams Book The Hitchikers Guide. If you read aabout this number it has to confuse you because it just rambles on and on about irrelovent concepts. It sounds bad in Japanese. It is this kind of number and that kind of number and it comes after 41 and before 43. So what do you mean when you say, "This would be better than 42 as an answer to life, the universe and everything!" What does that mean?

Honestly I never gave any thought to the number 42 as the answer to life. Did I miss something? I mean if you climbed the mountain, and asked. What is life and you got the answer 42. I think I would have to smack him. Smile
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Jonathan Townsend
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On 2012-07-04 22:19, acesover wrote:... I think I would have to smack him. Smile


So your version of faith, piety and humility is about smacking people who dissapoint you. Glad you are where you are. Peace be upon you.
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acesover
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On 2012-07-04 22:16, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-04 21:59, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 18:41, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Supreme Being?

Aliens... I prefer Ancient Aliens myself. Smile


Hee, hee...Where did they come from? Who created them?


Let's posit that some of them are a few hundred thousand years ahead of us and make an offer to clean up our what they claim to be a "cargo cult" version of their True Faith. Will you tithe to them? Will you let go of what they assert are falshoods and crude misunderstandings of their Faith which somehow has not taken root correctly here? (history buffs will recall how 'other schools' were standardized not so long ago).

Hint: think Star Trek IV but with whales as the annointed ones.


I cannot answer that becaause I do not know anything about their faith. Do they believe in a Supreme Being? Or do they feel they are the product of an accident that we now can attribute to something called 'The God Particle"? I need more information about these aliens before I can take them at their word. Smile

Your senario sounds a little like the Original, "The Day the Earth Stood Still". concept. Not to be confused with the atrocity recently produced using the same title.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-04 22:19, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 21:52, Andre Hagen wrote:
The "God Particle"

There is an announcement coming up tomorrow regarding the possibility that the Higgs Boson (as the physicists call it) has been identified at CERN.

This would be better than 42 as an answer to life, the universe and everything!

Andre


Seriously? The number 42? Its biggest claim to fame is Doougls Adams Book The Hitchikers Guide. If you read aabout this number it has to confuse you because it just rambles on and on about irrelovent concepts. It sounds bad in Japanese. It is this kind of number and that kind of number and it comes after 41 and before 43. So what do you mean when you say, "This would be better than 42 as an answer to life, the universe and everything!" What does that mean?

Honestly I never gave any thought to the number 42 as the answer to life. Did I miss something? I mean if you climbed the mountain, and asked. What is life and you got the answer 42. I think I would have to smack him. Smile


You may have missed the ultimate question: What do you get if you multiply six by nine?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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Atrocity? IMHO the key moment comes in the dialog between the alien and the child where the alien understands the child is impulsive and incapable of being responsible for his words/actions. IMHO the scene worked. It's not the same preaching as in the Ziggy sashes back into his spaceship from the B/W movie - and IMHO still misses the point that the robot is the boss and 'klatu' is just the messenger monkey on this trip.

? the "original" of Day the Earth Stood is the short story "Farwell to the Master". It happens to be online so here's a link
Not sure how well what you are asking about would go over with the newly arrived agents of True Faith. It might get a response (again see history) like "you presume to interrogate the followers of the prophet Shamu to answer your mundane questions about matters of misunderstood Faith..."

You might enjoy "Bulk Food" by Peter Watts and hope that the Star Trek IV scenario is not on its way now.

or perhaps something involving the Case Nightmare Green scnenario would be more to your taste? Smile
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Jonathan Townsend
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Klatu aside, acesover you might find the discussion in Scalzi's latest book "Redshirts" pertinant to this topic, not to mention cogent and a fun read.

:)
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acesover
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On 2012-07-04 22:36, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Atrocity? IMHO it's telling that you don't like the 2008 version. Missing the Ziggy Stardust preaches moment of the B/W film? The key moment comes in the dialog between the alien and the child where the alien understands the child is impulsive and incapable of being responsible for his words/actions. IMHO the scene worked.

? the "original" of Day the Earth Stood is the short story "Farwell to the Master". It happens to be online so here's a link
Not sure how well what you are asking about would go over with the newly arrived agents of True Faith. It might get a response (again see history) like "you presume to interrogate the followers of the prophet Shamu to answer your mundane questions about matters of misunderstood Faith..."

You might enjoy "Bulk Food" by Peter Watts and hope that the Star Trek IV scenario is not on its way now.

or perhaps something involving the Case Nightmare Green scnenario would be more to your taste? Smile


While you may feel that scene worked. The movie missed the mark by several light years.

I was excited when I heard that there was going to be a remake. But after corresponding with a few other collectors before the movie came out they definitely had me disenchanted with most saying it will not hold up to the original and should not be produced, unfortunately they were correct.

It was as I stated earlier and atrocity. I assume you viewed the original. I have a few favorie movies and the original, "The DAy the Earath Stood Still" is one of my favorites so much so that I have quite a bit of memrobelia from it including an original movie poster that I acquired 15 years ago. Also, signed scripts by Rennie, Neal and Jaffe, along with lobby cards and several figures of Gort and the Flying Saucer.

I guess my disappoint was that the later production did not resemble the original film at all. Some may have enjoyed it but I did not and do not have one piece of material from it.

Klaatu barada nikto
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Jonathan Townsend
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At a guess you're missing that "klatu" is just a low level messenger who happens to look presentable to the savages that the ship is visiting.

I prefer the story in its 'as written' form. As effective as the B/W film is an enthymeme about Americana, IMHO the rest of the message of the story is lost to a jingoist message. IMHO Klatu's parting speech gets lost into echos of the other alien's (Eros) speech from Plan Nine about stupid earthmen and solarite.

Any thoughts on the Scalzi story? How about Peter Watts's take on the Star Trek IV warning? Waiting for what Stross and the Laundry call "Case Nightmare Green"?
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Jeff J.
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On 2012-07-03 16:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Aren't we all?


I don't believe so.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-04 23:20, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 16:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Aren't we all?


I don't believe so.


I remain first person singular - though that's debatable.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-04 23:20, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 16:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Aren't we all?


I don't believe so.






Quote:
On 2012-07-03 16:33, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 16:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Aren't we all?


I have to agree.





You were right the first time.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-04 23:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-04 23:20, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 16:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Aren't we all?


I don't believe so.


I remain first person singular - though that's debatable.


I always leave the possibility open that I may be wrong, but I always hope I'm not.
Jonathan Townsend
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Being a bad boy here - a link to the other alien's speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhvDMhrws1o

mash that into Michael Rennie's moment in Day the Earth Stood still Smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_seKyGYlTHY

stupid! Stupid! You could also notice how well the "any group anywhere" is lost on so many

race of robots... absolute power... nice Smile .
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