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mastermindreader
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Ron-

Just took the quiz at the Pew site that consisted of questions taken from the survey you cited. I was amazed to see that only 59% of Catholics correctly identified the Catholic teaching as to whether the transformation of the wine and wafer at communion are actual or symbolic.

Too bad that didn't list Deists as a category. The only question I missed was the last one about the Great Awakening. (I guess I slept through it.)
The great Gumbini
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Again you CAN lose your faith. TRUE. However I am NOT talking faith---I'm talking a real 100 percent, NOT made up fantasy, RELATIONSHIP with the Almighty Creator GOD Himself. All of you who "lost faith" (and this may sting a bit) have never had a true RELATIONSHIP with God. Now there is one other possibility and that is you did and do have a relationship with God but for some reason you feel He let you down. You can be Catholic till your hair turns a wonderful green but if you DO NOT have a relationship with God you will never know Him in a life changing way. No religion has it 100 percent right. Man created religion and in so doing has made every attempt to create God in the process. God created us to love Him and worship Him in a loving way (not a master way). This is why you have people today trying to do away with God (although that is NOT possible). You have people trying to do away with the 10 Commandments and trying to war against God's Holy Land totally unaware of the end result to such attempts. You say you don't believe in God. Well then I can assume you do not believe in His Word. Read Ezek.36-40 and look at Israel and her surrounding enemies. You are SEEING this prophesy being fulfilled by NON BELIEVING people. Can you tell me why Iran refuses to acknowledge Israel as it's own State? Look at how the events in Egypt has now caused Egypt to no longer want to keep a peace treaty with Israel that has been in place for years. They are all poised to attack Israel just as prophesied in the Scriptures. Iran wants a nuclear weapon because it says to defend itself. From whom? No one wants to attack Iran they are the ones tossing the bombs into Israel. The Nations will meet yet again to see what "action" should be taken yet Iran is clear it will not listen. Now for you non believers listen carefully. The Bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this when (not if) when these nations war against Israel God will intervene and destroy Israel's attackers. The carnage will be devastating and Israel will be burying the attackers for over 8 months. When this happens and it will Im sure some of you may say "It was just a chance thing." Remember this could not have come about before Israel became a Nation (for the second time---something NO other Nation ever did) and the surrounding Countries would ally against her. This is all happening now by Countries who DO NOT believe in the Bible (YET ARE FULFILLING IT"S WRITINGS!). Non Believers are bringing about what is written! Tell me any other writings where those who do not believe what is written are the ones who bring about what is written! Anyway I hope you read Ezek. and I hope you watch the events in the Middle East---all your doubts will go away---then you will have to decide if you want that ReLATIONSHIP with God and see why we who do know Him LOVE Him so much.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 21:40, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 21:16, The great Gumbini wrote:
R.S. with all due respect when one truly has a relationship (not upbringing, not church, and not even believing) with God it is IMPOSSIBLE to turn from Him. This is why people have laid their lives down and have been killed for their relationship (not belief as is so stated although the belief they speak of is that action word I talked about earlier) with God. They could no more turn their back on God then turn their back on the single most important earthly love in their life. Lets face it people are lazy and if we don't get what we want when we want it we lose interest. Show God you want to know Him. How? Simple take some time early in the morning go out side and keep asking Him if He is real to reveal Himself to you. For how long? Until He does. He will. Unbelief He can heal. Denying His existence may take longer but He will still reveal Himself. Just take 10 minutes each day until He makes Himself known. You will not be sorry. We just get so busy in our daily lives with worry and all we forget to take time for what is important. The Bible says IF you seek Him He will be found. The Bible WILL NOT make an exception for you since God does not treat those who seek Him differently. Try it you'll like it.


Good magic to all,


Eric


I, and many are others are living proof that it IS possible to stop believing in something. You stopped believing in Santa Claus at some point in your life, didn't you? And you REALLY REALLY believed, as practically all kids do. I was no less sincere in my belief in a God than any other theist.

Yes, people have laid down their lives for their God. The 9/11 hijackers are a good example of that. Is that something that's noble or desireable?

Yes, people are lazy. Intellectually lazy. It's easier to accept a warm comforting notion that things will all be made right in another life by a loving being. It's more difficult to accept the hard reality of life and the fact that nobody knows for sure what death brings.

If a Supreme Being wants me to believe, he wouldn't have allowed me to use my intellect which caused me to STOP believing in the first place!

The bible also says:
Matthew 18:19
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven."

What do you, as a SINCERE believer, think would happen if you and another 100% sincere believer prayed for an end to childhood cancers? Try it.


Ron



This post, Ron, tells me you have NO IDEA what religion is (since you are so knowledgeable about religion)....really it goes against everything in the Bahai Faith.

Dying in the neame of God is embraced when you will not give up on your love and true sacrificial services for ALL mankind, NOT 9/11...

Yes people are intellectually lazy, when an entirely new paradigm of what religion is, is introduced, yet "the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment, to see God with their own eyes, or hear His melody with their own ears"......

Kam on mate Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Sometimes lol just doesn't say it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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I'm sorry if you found my post head bangingly funny

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 20:50, kambiz wrote:

"Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues"......not recognizing how that simple truth, which is not a law of any land, can contribute towards a more prosperous and developing society, again, makes no rational sense. Every societal problem you can think of has lack of truthfulness at its core. So, Payne, don't be truthful, because you can get away with it, but know that at least you are living a good life.



Perhaps, but society would crumble if we only spoke the truth, or at least what we believed to be the truth to each other. Most peoples egos won't allow then to hear the unadulterated truth. There wouldn't be a magic club in existence if everyone truthfully told one another exactly what they thought of each others performances. Our society is cushioned by a thousands little lies we tell each other and ourselves every single day. As the Bible says, "For everything there is a season" There are times to lie and times to tell the truth. But no one can be truthfull all the time and hope to survive unscathed. Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:15, kambiz wrote:
I'm sorry if you found my post head bangingly funny

Kam


Your posts seem to run an amazing gamut between advocating an all-encompassing, all-supporting religion, disavowing knowledge, and telling people that they're simply wrong or ignorant in their beliefs.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 22:46, The great Gumbini wrote:
Again you CAN lose your faith. TRUE. However I am NOT talking faith---I'm talking a real 100 percent, NOT made up fantasy, RELATIONSHIP with the Almighty Creator GOD Himself. All of you who "lost faith" (and this may sting a bit) have never had a true RELATIONSHIP with God. Now there is one other possibility and that is you did and do have a relationship with God but for some reason you feel He let you down. You can be Catholic till your hair turns a wonderful green but if you DO NOT have a relationship with God you will never know Him in a life changing way.




A perfect example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

Quote:

No religion has it 100 percent right. Man created religion and in so doing has made every attempt to create God in the process. God created us to love Him and worship Him in a loving way (not a master way). This is why you have people today trying to do away with God (although that is NOT possible). You have people trying to do away with the 10 Commandments and trying to war against God's Holy Land totally unaware of the end result to such attempts. You say you don't believe in God. Well then I can assume you do not believe in His Word. Read Ezek.36-40 and look at Israel and her surrounding enemies. You are SEEING this prophesy being fulfilled by NON BELIEVING people. Can you tell me why Iran refuses to acknowledge Israel as it's own State? Look at how the events in Egypt has now caused Egypt to no longer want to keep a peace treaty with Israel that has been in place for years. They are all poised to attack Israel just as prophesied in the Scriptures. Iran wants a nuclear weapon because it says to defend itself. From whom? No one wants to attack Iran they are the ones tossing the bombs into Israel. The Nations will meet yet again to see what "action" should be taken yet Iran is clear it will not listen. Now for you non believers listen carefully. The Bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this when (not if) when these nations war against Israel God will intervene and destroy Israel's attackers. The carnage will be devastating and Israel will be burying the attackers for over 8 months. When this happens and it will Im sure some of you may say "It was just a chance thing." Remember this could not have come about before Israel became a Nation (for the second time---something NO other Nation ever did) and the surrounding Countries would ally against her. This is all happening now by Countries who DO NOT believe in the Bible (YET ARE FULFILLING IT"S WRITINGS!). Non Believers are bringing about what is written! Tell me any other writings where those who do not believe what is written are the ones who bring about what is written! Anyway I hope you read Ezek. and I hope you watch the events in the Middle East---all your doubts will go away---then you will have to decide if you want that ReLATIONSHIP with God and see why we who do know Him LOVE Him so much.


Good magic to all,


Eric


And all these people thought the time was right for Armageddon to occur. None of them were correct so I really don't take too much stock in your predictions of Jesus' immanent return. I've always wondered how long it's going to take before people just stop waiting.

Failed prophecies:
About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen. More details.

About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century. More details.

About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.

2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.

365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn't.

375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.

500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.

968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.

992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event.

1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly, as it later did in the year 2000.

1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.

1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.

1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus' actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.

1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine's reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.

1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.

1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.

1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.

1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.

1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.

1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.

1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus' return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.

1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.

1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.

1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year.

1783: On JUN-08, a volcanic eruption in southern Iceland started. It pumped massive amounts of toxic dust, sulphur dioxide and fluorine into the atmosphere. Cattle died, crops failed, and about one quarter of the island's population died of starvation. By the end of June, poisonous clouds had reached England and much of Europe. Boats had to stay in harbor because they could not navigate. There was massive loss of life in England, particularly among farm workers. Many predicted that the end of the world was imminent.

1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.

1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought that Doomsday would occur in this year.

1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.

1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants section 130:

14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:"

15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."

16: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

17: "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." 14
The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. 16 Smith is later recorded as having said:
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." 17

Smith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, having been assassinated by a mob
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 22:59, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Sometimes lol just doesn't say it.


For me, Robert Anton Wilson said it best:

Quote:
Death makes me realize how deeply I have internalized the agnosticism I preach in all my books. I consider dogmatic belief and dogmatic denial very childish forms of conceit in a world of infinitely whirling complexity. None of us can see enough from one corner of space-time to know "all" about the rest of space-time.

Every day is full of wonderments to me: Death will probably come to me as the greatest wonderment of all.


http://www.rawilson.com/thoughts.html

BTW- Here's one of Wilson's favorite jokes from the same page:

Quote:
A doctor, a nurse and the president of an HMO were standing with St. Peter at the pearly gates. St. Peter asks the doctor why he believes he should be given entrance to heaven. The doctor replies that he has worked his whole career to heal and treat people. St. Peter allows the doctor into heaven. St. Peter turns to the nurse and asks why she should be given entrance to heaven. The nurse replies that her whole career she was right there along side the doctor taking of the patient and making them as comfortable as was possible. St. Peter allows the nurse into heaven. St. Peter next asks the president of the HMO why he believed he should be given entrance into heaven. The HMO president replies that he was right there with the doctor and the nurse making sure these procedures were affordable. St. Peter opens the pearly gates as he tells the HMO president "Okay, but you can only stay for two days."


:eek:
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:15, kambiz wrote:
I'm sorry if you found my post head bangingly funny

Kam


Your posts seem to run an amazing gamut between advocating an all-encompassing, all-supporting religion, disavowing knowledge, and telling people that they're simply wrong or ignorant in their beliefs.


Sorry Lobo, but to be fair-minded, for Ron to equate the 9/11 tragedy to people giving up their lives for God is not a reflection of an understanding of what religions purpose is (which he claims to be knowledgeable of).....

The purpose of religion is clear. People using it for their own whims and pleasures is deviating from that purpose and is therefore not religion.

I may adhere to a religion that is all-embracing, but that statement is not an absolute one, and if you want to know what exactly that means, I will leave it to you to investigate for yourself.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 00:08, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:15, kambiz wrote:
I'm sorry if you found my post head bangingly funny

Kam


Your posts seem to run an amazing gamut between advocating an all-encompassing, all-supporting religion, disavowing knowledge, and telling people that they're simply wrong or ignorant in their beliefs.


Sorry Lobo, but to be fair-minded, for Ron to equate the 9/11 tragedy to people giving up their lives for God is not a reflection of an understanding of what religions purpose is (which he claims to be knowledgeable of).....

The purpose of religion is clear. People using it for their own whims and pleasures is deviating from that purpose and is therefore not religion.

I may adhere to a religion that is all-embracing, but that statement is not an absolute one, and if you want to know what exactly that means, I will leave it to you to investigate for yourself.

Kam


I don't want to put words in Ron's mouth, but I didn't see anything in the post you're commenting on that purported to be describing religion's purpose.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
The great Gumbini
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Payne don't blame the Scriptures because men misinterpreted them. There has NEVER been in history a time such as now when all these things are coming together. Payne? NEVER. You need to understand this. I can tell you there are more than a few people watching Israel and the surrounding Countries very carefully. These meetings taking place within a couple of weeks are not just for show. There is a real concern over matters that have developed over the past 9 months with Iran and nuclear power. I know it is fun to argue sides on this but when EVIDENCE hits you in the face and all you can do is come back with how people were wrong before I think the issue of a closed mind has to be addressed. The Bible says Israel WILL be attacked by all surrounding Countries. They will invade Israel. God will step in and destroy the attacking Countries. Destroy that is---not simply a victory but a statement. Payne this will happen. When it does I highly recommend after the world stops trembling that all non believers take a second look at God's Word the Bible. In the mean time keep a close eye on the Middle East. If you live in california tune in to 107.9 FM on fridays at 3:00 pm and you will hear a show where you will learn a lot about what is happening and how it pertains to the Bible. It is time to at least keep an eye on the events (and keep the Bible close so you can get answers). Anyone can say "I don't believe" but when things are coming to pass right in front of our eyes then we MUST at least consider what it could mean. And folks lets face it there is something going on in the Middle East and it ain't pretty!


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 01:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 00:08, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:15, kambiz wrote:
I'm sorry if you found my post head bangingly funny

Kam


Your posts seem to run an amazing gamut between advocating an all-encompassing, all-supporting religion, disavowing knowledge, and telling people that they're simply wrong or ignorant in their beliefs.


Sorry Lobo, but to be fair-minded, for Ron to equate the 9/11 tragedy to people giving up their lives for God is not a reflection of an understanding of what religions purpose is (which he claims to be knowledgeable of).....

The purpose of religion is clear. People using it for their own whims and pleasures is deviating from that purpose and is therefore not religion.

I may adhere to a religion that is all-embracing, but that statement is not an absolute one, and if you want to know what exactly that means, I will leave it to you to investigate for yourself.

Kam


I don't want to put words in Ron's mouth, but I didn't see anything in the post you're commenting on that purported to be describing religion's purpose.



I think the words "noble" and "desireable" points out purpose, to me anyway.

Maybe I am wrong, who am I anyway....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The great Gumbini
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BTW the Bible says that no man knows the day or the hour the Lord will return. But the Bible says to "watch" and when we see these things come to pass to know the time is at hand. These refrences Payne stated above only shows the Bible is true again---they did not know the day or hour did they? But when those "predictions" were made Israel was NOT yet a Nation again. So of course the Lord would not return at that time. But today we see things looking more like the time is closer than ever. Now of course peace could all of a sudden break out and all people could live in harmony. I wonder what the odds are on that in Vegas?


Good magic to all,


Eric
The great Gumbini
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You are Kam.


Good magic to all,


Eric
critter
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Getting back to the original question, that old-testament punishing Lord of War is one of the ones I hope doesn't exist.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 01:35, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 01:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-13 00:08, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:30, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:15, kambiz wrote:
I'm sorry if you found my post head bangingly funny

Kam


Your posts seem to run an amazing gamut between advocating an all-encompassing, all-supporting religion, disavowing knowledge, and telling people that they're simply wrong or ignorant in their beliefs.


Sorry Lobo, but to be fair-minded, for Ron to equate the 9/11 tragedy to people giving up their lives for God is not a reflection of an understanding of what religions purpose is (which he claims to be knowledgeable of).....

The purpose of religion is clear. People using it for their own whims and pleasures is deviating from that purpose and is therefore not religion.

I may adhere to a religion that is all-embracing, but that statement is not an absolute one, and if you want to know what exactly that means, I will leave it to you to investigate for yourself.

Kam


I don't want to put words in Ron's mouth, but I didn't see anything in the post you're commenting on that purported to be describing religion's purpose.



I think the words "noble" and "desireable" points out purpose, to me anyway.

Maybe I am wrong, who am I anyway....

Kam


You may be right; as I say, I hesitate (somewhat) to put words in his mouth, but discussion would be pretty pointless if we didn't do our best to ascribe meaning to others' words. I took him to simply be describing a (extreme, obviously) real world action that was (regardless of whether rightly or wrongly) motivated by the religious beliefs of the individuals in question, said action being neither noble nor desirable.

But, as always, I appreciate your clarifying how you came to a different interpretation, and it goes a long way toward explaining your reaction.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-13 01:37, The great Gumbini wrote:
You are Kam.


Good magic to all,


Eric


That may be so, and I'm happy to be mistaken, I will only learn.

Is it mistaken then to read from Ron's post that he has used the 9/11 tragedy as a reason to no longer believe in God?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-12 23:41, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 22:46, The great Gumbini wrote:
Again you CAN lose your faith. TRUE. However I am NOT talking faith---I'm talking a real 100 percent, NOT made up fantasy, RELATIONSHIP with the Almighty Creator GOD Himself. All of you who "lost faith" (and this may sting a bit) have never had a true RELATIONSHIP with God. Now there is one other possibility and that is you did and do have a relationship with God but for some reason you feel He let you down. You can be Catholic till your hair turns a wonderful green but if you DO NOT have a relationship with God you will never know Him in a life changing way.




A perfect example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

Quote:

No religion has it 100 percent right. Man created religion and in so doing has made every attempt to create God in the process. God created us to love Him and worship Him in a loving way (not a master way). This is why you have people today trying to do away with God (although that is NOT possible). You have people trying to do away with the 10 Commandments and trying to war against God's Holy Land totally unaware of the end result to such attempts. You say you don't believe in God. Well then I can assume you do not believe in His Word. Read Ezek.36-40 and look at Israel and her surrounding enemies. You are SEEING this prophesy being fulfilled by NON BELIEVING people. Can you tell me why Iran refuses to acknowledge Israel as it's own State? Look at how the events in Egypt has now caused Egypt to no longer want to keep a peace treaty with Israel that has been in place for years. They are all poised to attack Israel just as prophesied in the Scriptures. Iran wants a nuclear weapon because it says to defend itself. From whom? No one wants to attack Iran they are the ones tossing the bombs into Israel. The Nations will meet yet again to see what "action" should be taken yet Iran is clear it will not listen. Now for you non believers listen carefully. The Bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this when (not if) when these nations war against Israel God will intervene and destroy Israel's attackers. The carnage will be devastating and Israel will be burying the attackers for over 8 months. When this happens and it will Im sure some of you may say "It was just a chance thing." Remember this could not have come about before Israel became a Nation (for the second time---something NO other Nation ever did) and the surrounding Countries would ally against her. This is all happening now by Countries who DO NOT believe in the Bible (YET ARE FULFILLING IT"S WRITINGS!). Non Believers are bringing about what is written! Tell me any other writings where those who do not believe what is written are the ones who bring about what is written! Anyway I hope you read Ezek. and I hope you watch the events in the Middle East---all your doubts will go away---then you will have to decide if you want that ReLATIONSHIP with God and see why we who do know Him LOVE Him so much.


Good magic to all,


Eric


And all these people thought the time was right for Armageddon to occur. None of them were correct so I really don't take too much stock in your predictions of Jesus' immanent return. I've always wondered how long it's going to take before people just stop waiting.

Failed prophecies:
About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen. More details.

About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century. More details.

About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.

2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.

365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn't.

375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.

500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.

968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.

992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event.

1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly, as it later did in the year 2000.

1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.

1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.

1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus' actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.

1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine's reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.

1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.

1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.

1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.

1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.

1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.

1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.

1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus' return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.

1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.

1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.

1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year.

1783: On JUN-08, a volcanic eruption in southern Iceland started. It pumped massive amounts of toxic dust, sulphur dioxide and fluorine into the atmosphere. Cattle died, crops failed, and about one quarter of the island's population died of starvation. By the end of June, poisonous clouds had reached England and much of Europe. Boats had to stay in harbor because they could not navigate. There was massive loss of life in England, particularly among farm workers. Many predicted that the end of the world was imminent.

1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.

1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought that Doomsday would occur in this year.

1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.

1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants section 130:

14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:"

15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."

16: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

17: "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." 14
The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. 16 Smith is later recorded as having said:
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." 17

Smith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, having been assassinated by a mob


OMG. You really have issues. Where did you find this information. I am sure someone somewhere also predicted that Jesus would give them the winning lottery numbers if you asked him. I bet that did not happen either. I do not know who is more delusional those that predicted what you posted, or you for posting it.

You mention a whole bunch of people I never even heard of. I looked up some of them. They were nothing but clerics, not prophets any more than you or I. Their word is not to be taken seriously by anyone much someone who professes to have some knowlede of the bible. If they said just about anything else not involviing religion you would not even care.

Joe from New York said the world would end last Tuesday. How did that work out? He is still wandering around New York but crossed out the date on his sign and changed it to July 5th. I am surprised you did not quote him. Who cares what he or people like him say?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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