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Jeff J.
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Kam, I've listened and tried to understand the points you make in your PM's to me, but I think it would be more enlightening if you were to discuss it on the public forum rather than in private. I consider you a very sincere and nice person, but in the end, I feel it's more productive if we share the views we've talked about in private in public. You bring up some good points, but since I have no intention of converting, talking in private is not in the best interest of your promoting your beliefs. I look forward to speaking with you again in a public discussion.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-19 21:17, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-19 20:58, The great Gumbini wrote:
Well I have never met someone that says the Bible is ALL wrong on every point. You see as Christians we believe the Bible to be God's Word and therefore without error. We do however realize that people will believe the Bible is saying something it is not. Most people I have spoken with about the Bible basically pick and choose what to believe is accurate and what is not. It that case those who do not believe in the Bible may have an advantage. Christians do believe that God's Word contains the truth and is without error and we accept that as fact. Not blindly but by study.

Science is good in a lot of ways. I'm glad God invented it too. I have a hard time with some things scientists say. Plus they don't always agree (At least there is a uniform theme running through the Scriptures) on certain things they study. For example a simple thing like "How old is the earth?" Some say billions of years others millions and still some thousands. Only The Jews and Christians break it down to just over 10,000 years. Science has been wrong about quite a bit of things (agent orange) but it is trying. As a matter of fact science has been wrong about things more than the Bible (wrong here is from the non believes point of view). But then again science does not claim to be right all the time. Science is NOT perfect---God is.


Good magic to all,


Eric


Gumbini,

How do you reconcile this...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/d......ies.html


Ron


Honestly I have never before seen such drivel in my life. Do you really expect someone to answer these questions here? There is not enough bandwidh here to even begin.

Besides it is nonsense and childish.

Even the first question is nonsense. About light and dark. For some reason th eposter of this drivel equates light with the sun. Remembeer there was nothing. He created light and darkness and seperated the two. At this time I have no idea yet if God even created the sun but it is impied by this simplistiic question that the sun is the source of all light which did not even exist until God created it. Again remember there was nothing.

It goes on to say Adam lived x number of years and died the day he ate the fruit as if that is a contradiction. Do you have any concept what is meant when God said Adam died the day he ate the fruit? Please do not post such childish junk that you find on the net. I could go on and on but as I said there is not enough bandwith to do it and besides this posting of whomever postd this ridiculous list does not warrant a response.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
kambiz
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....also the reality is, that the atheists do have a valid reason to question the ccontents of the Bible, it begs a huge amount of questions. It's whole validity is rationally put into question by the atheists. The questions about the cruelty of the Biblical God is a valid one. The pointlessness of doing ANYTHING if God is All-Knowing, Ominpotent and Omniscient are all very valid questions.

.....again the answers to ALL these valid questions are not conclusively answered by the Christians, their understanding of truth is either 2000 years old or its man-made, one or the other, and as a result its either laughable or inconsistent with logic....again, the rational, non man-made answers are out there Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 00:25, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Kam, I've listened and tried to understand the points you make in your PM's to me, but I think it would be more enlightening if you were to discuss it on the public forum rather than in private. I consider you a very sincere and nice person, but in the end, I feel it's more productive if we share the views we've talked about in private in public. You bring up some good points, but since I have no intention of converting, talking in private is not in the best interest of your promoting your beliefs. I look forward to speaking with you again in a public discussion.



Sounds good Jeff Smile

As I've said to you over PM, I have no intention to convert anyone. My words in this forum are not endowed with any spirit. My purpose here is to expand consciousness which is already happening. Up until 3 months ago, a large majority of people in this forum had not even heard of Baha'u'llah. Now you all have and it means you all have another thing to think about. Something Lobo said today in another one of the threads again, made all my efforts worthwhile in these forums Smile

Please understand also that you sought me with a PM questioning about the Baha'i perspective on "hell" which I obliged to answer for you. I'm an open book mate, happy to discuss everything in public or privately Smile

Thanks again my friend, and I do see you as a friend, we shared some nice moments over PM Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 00:29, kambiz wrote:
....also the reality is, that the atheists do have a valid reason to question the ccontents of the Bible, it begs a huge amount of questions. It's whole validity is rationally put into question by the atheists. The questions about the cruelty of the Biblical God is a valid one. The pointlessness of doing ANYTHING if God is All-Knowing, Ominpotent and Omniscient are all very valid questions.

.....again the answers to ALL these valid questions are not conclusively answered by the Christians, their understanding of truth is either 2000 years old or its man-made, one or the other, and as a result its either laughable or inconsistent with logic....again, the rational, non man-made answers are out there Smile

Kam


I'm glad you agree that the questions are valid, but asserting that "non man-made answers are out there" add's nothing to our understanding of the universe. You are simply filling in the blanks about things that are hard to understand with some "being" that's even more difficult to understand. Whoever said "I don't know" is a bad thing?
LobowolfXXX
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I would think that 2000 years looks different from a human perspective than from an eternal one.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 00:29, kambiz wrote:
....also the reality is, that the atheists do have a valid reason to question the ccontents of the Bible, it begs a huge amount of questions. It's whole validity is rationally put into question by the atheists. The questions about the cruelty of the Biblical God is a valid one. The pointlessness of doing ANYTHING if God is All-Knowing, Ominpotent and Omniscient are all very valid questions.

.....again the answers to ALL these valid questions are not conclusively answered by the Christians, their understanding of truth is either 2000 years old or its man-made, one or the other, and as a result its either laughable or inconsistent with logic....again, the rational, non man-made answers are out there Smile

Kam


What cruelty are you speaking of? Are you speakingof The Old Testament? Which was written for the Jews who just wandered for 40 years and suffered unbearable hardships. You do not tell them that if they break a law of God you will be punished by having no supper tonight or for that matter put them in jail for 5 years and cloth and feed them because that would be a break from what they just went through.. These people just suffered hardships that you or I have no idea for the last 40 years.

So your idea of cruel today and that of the Jews of the time I would say are probably two entirely different concepts. Do not compare today with the time that the Old Testament was written for you or I have o no idea what they went through and as I said what you feel is cruel and what they feel was cruel are probably two different things entirely. Thepunishment had to be whta today is considered cruel because whaat they had at that time was extreme hardship and what we have today is a cakewalk. For someone who just suffered for 40 years wandering the desert do you think punishimg them by saying no soup for you tonight is punishment? Do you think that putting them is prison and feeding them is punishment? Well think again. Howevr they knew stoning was punishment and of course we feel it is cruel. But put it in perspective as punishment goes and what they have jus endured. How do you punish someone who has just went through hades for 40 years?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Jeff J.
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There is no need to even go into the Old Testament. If you want to discuss cruelty, there are gems everywhere. One of my favorites is Exodus 21:20-21. - "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

The kinder, gentler God of the New Testament says it's okay to beat your slave as long as he stays alive for a couple days. If he dies, the punishment was usually a small fine. Often people think I'm wrong for considering myself more moral than the god of the Bible, but since I don't condone slavery, much less how much to charge for slaves or how to treat them, nor have I ever condoned the killing of innocent children simply because they were disobedient, I disagree. People can say "It's God's way", or "we can't question His motives", or one of my favorites, he is too complicated to understand". That's BS that was drilled into our minds as children. I firmly believe that most people with even a bit of morality wouldn't even consider doing most things that Gods word in the Bible considers just fine.

Don't be ashamed that you are more moral than the people who wrote that book supposedly being the word of God. Be proud that wouldn't do the things the Bible condones.
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Does anyone here understand the concept "the collective body of mankind has been through its adolescence and is now approaching maturity"??

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Jeff J.
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Are you referring to evolution?
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 00:36, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 00:29, kambiz wrote:
....also the reality is, that the atheists do have a valid reason to question the ccontents of the Bible, it begs a huge amount of questions. It's whole validity is rationally put into question by the atheists. The questions about the cruelty of the Biblical God is a valid one. The pointlessness of doing ANYTHING if God is All-Knowing, Ominpotent and Omniscient are all very valid questions.

.....again the answers to ALL these valid questions are not conclusively answered by the Christians, their understanding of truth is either 2000 years old or its man-made, one or the other, and as a result its either laughable or inconsistent with logic....again, the rational, non man-made answers are out there Smile

Kam


I'm glad you agree that the questions are valid, but asserting that "non man-made answers are out there" add's nothing to our understanding of the universe. You are simply filling in the blanks about things that are hard to understand with some "being" that's even more difficult to understand. Whoever said "I don't know" is a bad thing?



I "do" know the answers to these questions Jeff. The answers are very rational, and explains a lot, both intellectually and when observed scientifically in all humans that I encounter Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 01:20, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Are you referring to evolution?


Yes.....partially.....what makes you think that evolution is ONLY an "observable" theory?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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....and secondly, what makes you think that religions are EXEMPT from evolution?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Jeff J.
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Please explain what you mean by "observable". We only found about about the former planet Pluto in 1930, yet we know that it takes 248 years to circle the sun. We didn't "observe" that obviously.

Secondly, religion has nothing to do with evolution (unless someone is a fundie who believes that the Earth is 6,000 years old and humans rode around on dinosaurs...Some Adam and Eve believers still think that men have one less rib than women), but even people who don't go that far tend to lump religion and evolution together.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you meant by "observable". Jeff
kambiz
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By observeable I'm talking about many things. For example, when religious truth was addressed to humanity during Jesus's time, the concept of original sin was introduced. This concept of original sin served a purpose "at the time"....what do you think was the purpose of this concept during Jesus's time, knowing that intellectually, humans were not as advanced as they are today, both individually and collectively?

Today, the concept of original sin has been abrogated by Baha'u'llah's message. The nature of man in religious terms has evolved to what Baha'u'llah describes as "latent capacities". This is a very interesting area of Bahai theology that I could write pages and pages on to explain fully. By "observeable" I mean this: that the nature of man as described by Baha'u'llah presents a revolutionary change in educational methodology, absolutely unseen in all modern day education. When a child gets educated using these Baha'i concepts as the core of the educational model, the results are "OBSERVEABLY" different to all other educational models present in the world today.

Now that is just ONE example as to how religious truth has EVOLVED.....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Jeff J.
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First of all, you are starting off with an argument from scripture. Just because there are some facts contained in the Bible (such as places that exist or existed), doesn't make the entire book true. There may or may not have been a person named Jesus, but for the sake of argument, let's say there was. That's a far cry from saying that person went around performing miracles. As far as the "original sin", you are taking a leap of faith that one act that happened thousands of years ago caused this god to condemn all future mankind. If there IS a god, I'd like to think he/she is a little better than that.

I don't know what "Baha'u'llah" is, so when I asked you "what makes you think that evolution is ONLY an "observable" theory" really makes no sense to me.

Can you explain it to me in a way that doesn't involve a religious belief? In other words, what part of "evolution" (in non-religious talk) were you referring to in your original post? Thanks.
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One of the main differences between philosophers and scientists is that philosophers tend to more readily know (or at least admit) when they're doing metaphysics.

He who is without presuppositions among you, let him cast the first stone.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
One of the main differences between philosophers and scientists is that philosophers tend to more readily know (or at least admit) when they're doing metaphysics.

He who is without presuppositions among you, let him cast the first stone.


If you're trying to compare science with metaphysics, you make a good point with casting stones. I believe stones were the weapon of choice when metaphysics was replaced with science. I have this bump on my knee. I was going to see an actual doctor who studied science, but perhaps a good philosopher or metaphysicist may be the way to go.

I believe you're a little off on the "main difference" between the two.
LobowolfXXX
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Metaphysics is still out there, as science doesn't answer moral questions. And if you're looking for someone to advance the case for psychics, you've come to the wrong place. Well, actually, you've come to the right place, but I'm not the right person.

I just wonder how many "scientific facts" that you're so sure of today will be scoffed at and dismissed in the next century or two.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 03:28, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
One of the main differences between philosophers and scientists is that philosophers tend to more readily know (or at least admit) when they're doing metaphysics.

He who is without presuppositions among you, let him cast the first stone.


If you're trying to compare science with metaphysics, you make a good point with casting stones. I believe stones were the weapon of choice when metaphysics was replaced with science. I have this bump on my knee. I was going to see an actual doctor who studied science, but perhaps a good philosopher or metaphysicist may be the way to go.

I believe you're a little off on the "main difference" between the two.


It wasn't philosophers who were lobotomizing tens of thousands of people in the last century.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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