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Slide
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For me: early christianity was all about meditation. That is where you would find the truth: as in the Desert Fathers. The preoccupation with the bible had little impact on the early christians who found the truth through prayer and mediation, not what they read in a book.
acesover
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On 2012-06-20 16:46, Slide wrote:
"You believe in human creativity? What exactly is that? I honestly do not know. "

Human creativity: the power of the human mind to create works of art, exand knowledge, investigate the world, imagination. Nearly everything you see around you is the result of human creativity.


I would go onto give you my thoughts on this and the thoughts of others but I believe that would be a rehash and we went over that about 20 pages go. I will just throw this out. Where did we all come from? There was nothing and here we are now. If you question this as I said go back to the beginning of this thread.
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acesover
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On 2012-06-20 16:44, Slide wrote:
"However none of these attributes make me want to bow down to what he believes"

The good thing is scholorship doesn't require you bow down. Look at the evidence and decide. The fact that you won't even listen to what he says, says a lot


I don't know. I just take Jesus' word over his. But that is just me.

Unfortunately Jesus does not have a podcast. Smile
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mastermindreader
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Let's try the show of hands again. Anybody change their minds yet?
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 16:46, Slide wrote:
"You believe in human creativity? What exactly is that? I honestly do not know. "

Human creativity: the power of the human mind to create works of art, exand knowledge, investigate the world, imagination. Nearly everything you see around you is the result of human creativity.


Is that a religious belief or just a mind set?

By the way everything I see around me is the result of God's gift to man, his ingenuity. How he uses it is his free will.
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acesover
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On 2012-06-20 17:35, mastermindreader wrote:
Let's try the show of hands again. Anybody change their minds yet?


I did change my mind. I said I was done posting to this thread and started posting again. Does that count? I am going to try and refrain again. Just that some people come up with such off the wall comments that just make me cringe and I have to post. No will power here. Smile OK I am done...for sure, maybe, unless...
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On 2012-06-20 17:18, Slide wrote:
I have to tell you aces and Lobo

When I listen to you guys, to me it is like listening to someone who believes they were abducted by aliens.


That's an interesting effect to have, considering that I'm not even a theist. Which of my posts sounded like someone who believes he was abducted by aliens?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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R.S.
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On 2012-06-20 12:06, kambiz wrote:
Eric, can you provide a quote from the Quran where Muhammad talks against Jesus?

Kam


Although not a quote from Muhammaad, verse 19:88 is interesting...

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!
—Qur’an 19:88


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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On 2012-06-19 22:05, The great Gumbini wrote:
Ron,

I'll tell you what pick the one you think is the biggest "error" or contradiction and I'll help clear it up ok? These are very old points that have been reviewed before. Example the light and the darkness and the sun and moon are two different events. Actually if you read the Scriptures you will find the moon was for light at night (Gen 1;16). These do appear (appear) to be contradictions on the surface however you will find upon closer study most go hand in hand to show a complete view. Also realize if these were truly honest contradictions then the arguments you all have made would be valid ones and in fact I for one would never have believed that the Bible was without error or contradictions for this long. One the surface they do appear to contradict but you will find they do not. Some are easier to explain and some will take a little understanding of times and customs but all can be explained. This is nothing new in fact I'm surprised someone hasn't used at least part of this list up until now. I normally have people by now say things like "Well if you believe the Bible has no contradictions what about..." and then one of these will be brought up. You did a very nice job finding a nice list we can all have fun with. So let me know if you have a favorite and we will start with that ok?


Good magic to all,


Eric


Eric,

I'll doubt you'll go far "clearing things up" when you couldn't even get past the first one (light and darkness). Do you want to give that one another shot?

Also, you won't even get CHRISTIANS to agree on the many many many inconsistencies in the Bible. Let me know when believers come to a consensus on biblical interpretation and then we can discuss.

Also, I believe Payne already posted some factual errors from the Bible, so you may want to refer to that as well.

Ron
:)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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On 2012-06-20 17:35, mastermindreader wrote:
Let's try the show of hands again. Anybody change their minds yet?


Not a change, but convinced more than ever now, there are a lot of people on here needing help bad.

Surely some of these folks are not allowed out in the real world. Smile

Tom
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Ron that's not talking against Jesus. That's reflecting on the correct interpretation of what the Son of God means. It's just informing the reader that a "literal" translation of the phrase "Son of God" is a dangerous state of understanding. A vast majority of Christian theologians would agree with this interoretation of its meaning Smile

I will give an example of someone who talks AGAINST someone else: "James is a liar, evil doer and everything he teaches is false"

So I ask again, is there any quotes from the Quran that talks AGAINST Jesus?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Slide
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To me the most interesting thing about studying Christianity, especially early christianity. is the difference between the early christians and this very recent obsession with the bible. In the early days, the written word, i.e. the bible was not a big part of the christian method. It was mediation, prayer - a true looking within to find the answers yourself. This is the genius of the early Desert Fathers and the mystics such as St John of the Cross. Reading the Dark Night of the Soul, you really saw spirituality at its most passionate and intense.

It was only much much later that the written word in the christian religion began to dominate and when that happened, as far as I'm concerned, that was the end of christianity as the early christians would recognize it and it became so corrupted as to be a shell of the intensity of the original religion. Today, christianity is so watered down and corrupt to be really empty and souless as a religion. and the people today (and this is why I argue with you Aces) - you are missing the true great joy and revelation and spiritual awakening that the Christian religion used to engender. You have basically missed what christianity was really all about. And That I find incredibly sad.
Steve_Mollett
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On 2012-06-19 22:05, The great Gumbini wrote:
Ron,

I'll tell you what pick the one you think is the biggest "error" or contradiction and I'll help clear it up ok? These are very old points that have been reviewed before. Example the light and the darkness and the sun and moon are two different events. Actually if you read the Scriptures you will find the moon was for light at night (Gen 1;16). These do appear (appear) to be contradictions on the surface however you will find upon closer study most go hand in hand to show a complete view. Also realize if these were truly honest contradictions then the arguments you all have made would be valid ones and in fact I for one would never have believed that the Bible was without error or contradictions for this long. One the surface they do appear to contradict but you will find they do not. Some are easier to explain and some will take a little understanding of times and customs but all can be explained. This is nothing new in fact I'm surprised someone hasn't used at least part of this list up until now. I normally have people by now say things like "Well if you believe the Bible has no contradictions what about..." and then one of these will be brought up. You did a very nice job finding a nice list we can all have fun with. So let me know if you have a favorite and we will start with that ok?


Good magic to all,


Eric


Why did God curse the serpent?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
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kambiz
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On 2012-06-20 15:51, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Kam, you do know that the Muslim Clerics (Sunni and Syiah) regard your Bahai Faith as Apostasy right?

That Bahaullah's claims to Prophethood (or whatever) is regarded as false right?

If you still take from the teachings of Islam (the Quran and Hadith), what do you say to the one billion Muslim Ummah who say you of the Bahai Faith are apostates?


You know what Pakar, I say good luck to them. Such has been the radiance and love of those blessed persecuted Baha'is in Iran, that they have transformed those Muslims who know them, to such an extent that I'm convinced that when a regime change does occurr we will see a mass explosion in Bahai community membership in that country. We are seeing it with Muslims who have left Iran and can choose their religion freely and we are seeing it in the production of recent movies (Iranian Taboo) by Muslims on the sad plight of the persecuted Baha'is .....

The reality is this. Nowhere does it say in the Quran that the Bahai Faith will arise in the future and all Muslims should kill the Baha'is. Nowhere does Muhammad Himself say anything of the sort. Muhammads mission was very specific, to remove idol worship from that region and to create a framework for nation building. He said He was the final prophet, and called all the Divine Teachers before him prophets too. What does a prophet do? Amongst other things He prophesies. Baha'u'llah says He is the fulfillment of ALL prophecies from every Divine Teacher since the beginning of Abrahamic religious commencement.


Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Steve_Mollett
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On 2012-06-19 23:35, kambiz wrote:
Really, the arguments here are laughable considering no-one on this thread has read any of the Bahai Writings which explains clearly and rationally all the challenges being laid down by theists and atheists alike in this thread....

......but you guys keep going ahead....

This is fun!! Smile

Kam

Sorry, but your credibility left the building with Elvis long ago. Smile
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
kambiz
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On 2012-06-20 19:26, Slide wrote:
To me the most interesting thing about studying Christianity, especially early christianity. is the difference between the early christians and this very recent obsession with the bible. In the early days, the written word, i.e. the bible was not a big part of the christian method. It was mediation, prayer - a true looking within to find the answers yourself. This is the genius of the early Desert Fathers and the mystics such as St John of the Cross. Reading the Dark Night of the Soul, you really saw spirituality at its most passionate and intense.

It was only much much later that the written word in the christian religion began to dominate and when that happened, as far as I'm concerned, that was the end of christianity as the early christians would recognize it and it became so corrupted as to be a shell of the intensity of the original religion. Today, christianity is so watered down and corrupt to be really empty and souless as a religion. and the people today (and this is why I argue with you Aces) - you are missing the true great joy and revelation and spiritual awakening that the Christian religion used to engender. You have basically missed what christianity was really all about. And That I find incredibly sad.


So slide you've pointed out that God changed the rules from Old Testament to New Testament. What makes YOU think He hasn't changed the rules again?

What is your understanding of the Islamic, Babi and Bahai religions?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Steve_Mollett
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On 2012-06-20 00:15, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
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On 2012-06-20 00:03, acesover wrote:
As Rodney once said, Why can't we all just get along?.

Come on boys and girls believe what you want and let everyone else alone. Does anyone see a problem with that?

No one here is going to convince one to change their religious beliefs nor are they going to change the mind of an atheist. So I say as that smarter than we realize great card player often says, "believe what you want". And as I say. Please don't try and force your beliefs on me. I am quite content with my religious beliefs and my relationsip with God.


Wouldn't that be a nice thing? If only religious folks just worshipped their faith in their own way and not make laws that impose their beliefs on everyone, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I understand that most people worship in their own way without dragging unwilling people into their beliefs, but if you want "everyone to get along", I suggest you contact your politicians and tell them to practice their faith without forcing it on the minority who don't share their beliefs. I'm not evem talking about people who knock on my door in the morning to tell me I have "good news". I'm talking about those who decide to set science back decades because thier faith tells them that stem cells that would otherwise be discarded are better off going in the trash than help people who are actually living improve their quality of life.

We won't complain about your beliefs if you don't shove it down the throats of those who choose to believe otherwise. I don't knock on people doors on a Saturday morning to tell them there's no good news.

:applause:
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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On 2012-06-20 19:37, Steve_Mollett wrote:
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On 2012-06-19 23:35, kambiz wrote:
Really, the arguments here are laughable considering no-one on this thread has read any of the Bahai Writings which explains clearly and rationally all the challenges being laid down by theists and atheists alike in this thread....

......but you guys keep going ahead....

This is fun!! Smile

Kam

Sorry, but your credibility left the building with Elvis long ago. Smile


Steady Steve S.T.E.A.D.Y

Hey, why so cruel????

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:41, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:37, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-19 23:35, kambiz wrote:
Really, the arguments here are laughable considering no-one on this thread has read any of the Bahai Writings which explains clearly and rationally all the challenges being laid down by theists and atheists alike in this thread....

......but you guys keep going ahead....

This is fun!! Smile

Kam

Sorry, but your credibility left the building with Elvis long ago. Smile


Steady Steve S.T.E.A.D.Y

Hey, why so cruel????

Kam


Kam, he was making a comparison to Elvis, so you should have said, "Don't Be Cruel." Smile
Steve_Mollett
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On 2012-06-20 03:34, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Metaphysics is still out there, as science doesn't answer moral questions. And if you're looking for someone to advance the case for psychics, you've come to the wrong place. Well, actually, you've come to the right place, but I'm not the right person.

I just wonder how many "scientific facts" that you're so sure of today will be scoffed at and dismissed in the next century or two.


That depends on how much we learn - updating our understanding is a major facet of the scientific method.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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