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Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 09:22, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 01:00, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
There is no need to even go into the Old Testament. If you want to discuss cruelty, there are gems everywhere. One of my favorites is Exodus 21:20-21. - "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

The kinder, gentler God of the New Testament says it's okay to beat your slave as long as he stays alive for a couple days. If he dies, the punishment was usually a small fine. Often people think I'm wrong for considering myself more moral than the god of the Bible, but since I don't condone slavery, much less how much to charge for slaves or how to treat them, nor have I ever condoned the killing of innocent children simply because they were disobedient, I disagree. People can say "It's God's way", or "we can't question His motives", or one of my favorites, he is too complicated to understand". That's BS that was drilled into our minds as children. I firmly believe that most people with even a bit of morality wouldn't even consider doing most things that Gods word in the Bible considers just fine.

Don't be ashamed that you are more moral than the people who wrote that book supposedly being the word of God. Be proud that wouldn't do the things the Bible condones.

O

OK lets read the passage. <quote> "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. <end quote> It says that if a man beats his servant and the servant dies he shall surely be punished. It says nothing about how long it will take.

However if the man lives and does not die he will not be punished. Everyone will die eventually. The day or two is nothing more than stating that if the servant lives and does not die as a result of the beating then man is not responsible for the servants death, as everyone dies. But if he died because of the beating the man will be punished it says that in the first passage. Read it again.

So maybe you should pick another favorite. Smile

Besides which, "Exodus" is very much OLD Testament.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 12:18, Slide wrote:
"The biblical position is clear. Distinctions between clean and unclean meats existed long before the New Testament was written; they were followed by the leaders and other members of the early Church; and they will still apply at the time of Christ's return in the future, when He will enforce them. Therefore they are clearly to be observed today as well by members of the modern Church, which "keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ""

From your link aces. I read that as saying that christians should follow the dietary restrictions found in the Torah. So do you?

And where does that put St. Peter's dream in "Acts"?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:46, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:41, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:37, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-19 23:35, kambiz wrote:
Really, the arguments here are laughable considering no-one on this thread has read any of the Bahai Writings which explains clearly and rationally all the challenges being laid down by theists and atheists alike in this thread....

......but you guys keep going ahead....

This is fun!! Smile

Kam

Sorry, but your credibility left the building with Elvis long ago. Smile


Steady Steve S.T.E.A.D.Y

Hey, why so cruel????

Kam


Kam, he was making a comparison to Elvis, so you should have said, "Don't Be Cruel." Smile


Lol YES.....

Steve, Don't Be Cruel!!!

Now get back to work on other stuff!

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:46, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:41, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:37, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-19 23:35, kambiz wrote:
Really, the arguments here are laughable considering no-one on this thread has read any of the Bahai Writings which explains clearly and rationally all the challenges being laid down by theists and atheists alike in this thread....

......but you guys keep going ahead....

This is fun!! Smile

Kam

Sorry, but your credibility left the building with Elvis long ago. Smile


Steady Steve S.T.E.A.D.Y

Hey, why so cruel????

Kam


Kam, he was making a comparison to Elvis, so you should have said, "Don't Be Cruel." Smile

Thank yuh--thank yuh vera' much.
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The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Slide
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"What makes YOU think He hasn't changed the rules again?

What is your understanding of the Islamic, Babi and Bahai religions? "

Little to none. And you might be correct. Seems like there is a game changer every thousand years or so with god.
kambiz
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Earlier in this thread (on page 19) I asked if anyone was aware of the concept of body of mankind going through an evolution in consciousness from adolescnce into maturity.....



"All created things have their degree, or stage, of maturity. The period of maturity in the life of a tree is the time of its fruit bearing. The maturity of a plant is the time of its blossoming and flower. The animal attains a stage of full growth and completeness, and in the human kingdom man reaches his maturity when the lights of intelligence have their greatest power and development.


From the beginning to the end of his life man passes through certain periods, or stages, each of which is marked by certain conditions peculiar to itself. For instance, during the period of childhood his conditions and requirements are characteristic of that degree of intelligence and capacity. After a time he enters the period of youth, in which his former conditions and needs are superseded by new requirements applicable to the advance in his degree. His faculties of observation are broadened and deepened; his intelligent capacities are trained and awakened; the limitations and environment of childhood no longer restrict his energies and accomplishments. At last he passes out of the period of youth and enters the stage, or station, of maturity, which necessitates another transformation and corresponding advance in his sphere of life activity. New powers and perceptions clothe him, teaching and training commensurate with his progression occupy his mind, special bounties and bestowals descend in proportion to his increased capacities, and his former period of youth and its conditions will no longer satisfy his matured view and vision.


Similarly, there are periods and stages in the life of the aggregate world of humanity, which at one time was passing through its degree of childhood, at another its time of youth but now has entered its long presaged period of maturity, the evidences of which are everywhere visible and apparent. Therefore, the requirements and conditions of former periods have changed and merged into exigencies which distinctly characterize the present age of the world of mankind. That which was applicable to human needs during the early history of the race could neither meet nor satisfy the demands of this day and period of newness and consummation. Humanity has emerged from its former degrees of limitation and preliminary training. Man must now become imbued with new virtues and powers, new moralities, new capacities. New bounties, bestowals and perfections are awaiting and already descending upon him. The gifts and graces of the period of youth, although timely and sufficient during the adolescence of the world of mankind, are now incapable of meeting the requirements of its maturity. The playthings of childhood and infancy no longer satisfy or interest the adult mind.


From every standpoint the world of humanity is undergoing a reformation.........."


Abdu'l-Baha
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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It is humbly hoped that the above passage may aid understanding as to why some religious Texts speak to us as if we are "9 year olds"

How we have matured Smile

The more "mature" answers are out there, and its not just random made up stuff by another man....

As Bob has pointed out "has anyone changed their minds yet????"

We are all men randomly chit chatting, our words have little influence on others. There are however, several Men throughout history Who have shaped and changed the minds of millions. There is one Man, that has done this, that no-one on this thread really is aware of...

I humbly propose His Writings for all to study. It's a VAST arena of knowledge, explained in a way that can be put to the test to clarify its validity. I am here to clarify any misunderstandings Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Steve_Mollett
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Try this guy's writings:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/cold_turkey/

I am here to shake my head cynically if there are any misunderstandings--or whatever.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
kambiz
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Your link, Mr Elvis-lover Mollett, indicates to me that you need to read more "advanced" things. There were some very valid points made in your article you quoted. Yes life is a bummer sometimes, its d.a.r.n hard, and yes the struggles of humanity have been the subject of millions of pieces of literature.

However, I recommend this book to you (I read yours, will you read mine? Ah-huh Elvis Smile )

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/bic/COL/

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The great Gumbini
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Kam,

Jesus is and was the literal Son of God. He called God Abba. And God called Him Son. This is plain and clear. Also what is clear is other religions do not believe this is the case. God the Father took OF Himself and gave His Son to us. The word "of" is crucial here. Today with DNA this is a NO BRAINER. God the Father and His Son have THE SAME EXACT DNA as it were. This is why to reject Jesus is to reject the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Oh hear O Israel the Lord thy God is ONE. The reason the Bible comes under attack is simple it speaks the TRUTH and people like to say The truth hurts. Jesus was clear No man comes to the Father but through the Son. There are thousands of beliefs and religions and then there is the ONE WAY to the Father. The message is clear and simple---the decision however is yours to make. The Bible sets forth God who wants to have a relationship with His people and He will save them. Other religions put the WORKS on the people to try to save themselves. The Bible says apart from Jesus there is no Salvation. This is what the Bible says and This is what the Bible means. This message has not and will not change. If you are sure your religion is right and will get you to heaven---then you one day will stand before God and give your reasons as to why you believe the way you did. But if you want full assurance that you are saved then The Bible is the only writing I know that lays out the plan of Salvation so very clear. This Salvation is available for ALL. In Jesus Salvation is 100 percent guaranteed. Do you have the same assurance with your belief's? Do you KNOW that if today was your last that you would be with God? Is there any other book where a promised Savior was promised and then years later came? Set aside what you believe happened just look at the writings. Is it true the Bible promised a Savior? Yes. Is it true the Bible says that Savior came? Yes. Now the question is a simple one---do you believe in what the Bible says?

All other writings may speak some wonderful things---but do they offer the Savior? They may speak of good ways to live and what you can do to please God---but do they offer the Savior? What makes the Bible such a threat? It offers the truth. It offers Jesus to ANY AND ALL who will believe. It offers the ONLY way to the Father. Like it or not that is what the Bible offers. You have religion or you have Jesus---which do you want now? And which do you want when you stand before the Living God? That's the Bible---when all is said and done that is what the Bible is all about!


Good magic to all,


Eric
tommy
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So did God win this here election?

What is the score?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The great Gumbini
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Tommy God always wins---and I know you know that.


Good magic to all,


Eric
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 02:10, The great Gumbini wrote:
Kam,

Jesus is and was the literal Son of God. He called God Abba. And God called Him Son. This is plain and clear. Also what is clear is other religions do not believe this is the case. God the Father took OF Himself and gave His Son to us. The word "of" is crucial here. Today with DNA this is a NO BRAINER. God the Father and His Son have THE SAME EXACT DNA as it were. This is why to reject Jesus is to reject the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Oh hear O Israel the Lord thy God is ONE. The reason the Bible comes under attack is simple it speaks the TRUTH and people like to say The truth hurts. Jesus was clear No man comes to the Father but through the Son. There are thousands of beliefs and religions and then there is the ONE WAY to the Father. The message is clear and simple---the decision however is yours to make. The Bible sets forth God who wants to have a relationship with His people and He will save them. Other religions put the WORKS on the people to try to save themselves. The Bible says apart from Jesus there is no Salvation. This is what the Bible says and This is what the Bible means. This message has not and will not change. If you are sure your religion is right and will get you to heaven---then you one day will stand before God and give your reasons as to why you believe the way you did. But if you want full assurance that you are saved then The Bible is the only writing I know that lays out the plan of Salvation so very clear. This Salvation is available for ALL. In Jesus Salvation is 100 percent guaranteed. Do you have the same assurance with your belief's? Do you KNOW that if today was your last that you would be with God? Is there any other book where a promised Savior was promised and then years later came? Set aside what you believe happened just look at the writings. Is it true the Bible promised a Savior? Yes. Is it true the Bible says that Savior came? Yes. Now the question is a simple one---do you believe in what the Bible says?

All other writings may speak some wonderful things---but do they offer the Savior? They may speak of good ways to live and what you can do to please God---but do they offer the Savior? What makes the Bible such a threat? It offers the truth. It offers Jesus to ANY AND ALL who will believe. It offers the ONLY way to the Father. Like it or not that is what the Bible offers. You have religion or you have Jesus---which do you want now? And which do you want when you stand before the Living God? That's the Bible---when all is said and done that is what the Bible is all about!


Good magic to all,


Eric



Eric, so you are saying that God has DNA?

Like DNA, that runs through your body and my body??

It bemuses me that in the 21st century, people can rationalise this, if that's the case. I would love to be educated on your views here Eric, regarding your use of the word DNA.

Anyway, I can categorically tell you that not ALL Christians believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God.

Either way, to categorize Muhammad as someone being AGAINST Jesus for interpreting what the Son of God means is unfair and makes no sense Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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So the basic argument from some seems to be that the Bible is the literal word of God because the Bible says it is. In other words, it is a self referential and self proving document.

If anything appears to be contradictory in the text we're told it's because it's either been translated wrong or that the words don't really mean what we think they mean (so much for the idea of divinely inspired translators), or because we are reading it incorrectly.

I'm still wondering what day of the week the Last Supper was on, how many angels were at Jesus' tomb, how many women came to the tomb, where they went directly after, and to whom, if anyone, they told what they had witnessed. None of the Gospels are in agreement on these things. And yet biblical literalists will insist that all of the stories are nonetheless true in every detail.

Why? Because the Bible says so.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 02:10, The great Gumbini wrote:
This is why to reject Jesus is to reject the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.


Yes , I agree with this, unless you lived BEFORE Jesus, in which case, who saved them?? Did they reject the One True God, then?


Quote:
Jesus was clear No man comes to the Father but through the Son. There are thousands of beliefs and religions and then there is the ONE WAY to the Father.


So if Jesus was the ONE WAY, how do you explain these quotes, some of which came BEFORE Jesus came to earth?

1. This the path. There is no other that leads to vision. ­Buddhism, Dhammapada 20:274

2. Whoso seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray. ­Islám, Imám Alí, Hadith

3. He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me. ­Bahá'í Faith, Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 169

4. Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter. ­Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita 18:66

5. There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of ight and of purity, of the infinite Creator. ­Zoroastrianism, The Teachings of the Magi, p. 22



Be fair Eric........be fair in your judgement.....Jesus would want that Smile

Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them"......I'm sure if you were fair, you can work out what was meant by that .....






Quote:
This message has not and will not change.



Well, as can be evidently seen, the message DID change from Old Testament to New Testament. How can you rationalize that Eric?


Quote:
In Jesus Salvation is 100 percent guaranteed.


Of course it is, but the Jews before Jesus were similarly assured of eternal life, yet they missed the Messiah altogether, for what? They interpreted their own Scripture in a way that was completely closed-minded, so much so that when the Chosen Messiah Himself came and explained the "symbolic" truth behind their Scripture, they rejected Him, denied Him and scoffed at Him. The Jews were adamant, 100% guaranteed, in fact that they were right in their interpretations. But they were wrong, weren't they Eric? If I was a Jew, and I knew what you know, Eric, it would be a mistake to not at least investigate Jesus's claims, wouldn't it?


quote]
Do you have the same assurance with your belief's? Do you KNOW that if today was your last that you would be with God? ........Now the question is a simple one---do you believe in what the Bible says?

[/quote]

Yes, I do have the same assurances Eric, and I'm assured of eternal life in the presence of my Lord....but not because I closed my mind to everything else except Baha'u'llah, but beacuse I opened my eyes and saw the pattern of Divine Revelation since the beginning of recored history, even all the indigenous religions.....

I do believe in what the Bible says, but I am hesitant to interpret it like the Jews did and miss out on God like they did.....



Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
tommy
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When you eliminate the humans, then whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The great Gumbini
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Kam,

Let's not forget the Jews were also the first to accept Jesus as well. Again the Bible refers to the Jews who rejected Jesus because as a "people" they did. However a lot did in fact accept Him as their Savior. You keep saying that I am not keeping an open mind. I want to remind you Jesus said that NO man comes to the Father except by Him. I believe Him. I'm very well aware of the "All roads lead to God" theory. But keep in mind it is my position that the Bible is the final authority on matters concerning God since it is His Word. So when Jesus said He is THE way The Truth and The Life I believe Him. Do all roads lead to God? I will tell you this---all who do not believe in Jesus better hope so.

Anyone who has ever studied the Bible can easily see this is NO ordinary book. There is no cover up or sugar coating. Even in moments that most would love to hide---the Bible exposes the actions of people doing things that should not have been done. Part of the problem people have in reading the Bible is with preconceived notions. On a fun simple scale here are 2 questions you can ask most people and these will be their answers. What fruit did Eve eat that she was NOT supposed to eat? And how many wise men did Herod send to see where Jesus was born? Most will answer the fruit was an apple---yet the Bible never says it's an apple and on the wise men most will answer 3 they say the three wise men were sent---when in fact the Bible never gives the number of wise men it does however list three gifts so most assume each brought one gift each. Now these are small fun assumptions. But there are bigger assumptions that come that are more serious and can cause some people to have a hard time with wanting to read the Bible and learn about God.

I will look over the posts and see what questions are on here and try to get some answers to them for you. I have to be off to work though so I will check the other questions later when I get home.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 17:18, Slide wrote:
I have to tell you aces and Lobo

When I listen to you guys, to me it is like listening to someone who believes they were abducted by aliens.

By the way, I think god changed the rules on homosexuality. Once the pork was allowed, the gays were right behind.

Lobo: as far as what I studied :I spent a long time studying the Desert Fathers, The Cloud of Unknowing, the collected works of Thomas Merton, the works of Pagels. I studied the gnostic books, I read new translations of the new testament newly translated from the original greek. I studied buddhism, particularly zen and theravadian buddhism. Most of my studies focused on Christianity in its earliest days which coincided and meshed with early buddhism which I am convinced had a common heritage. I sat zen mediation for about 10 years and taught meditation at the local Episcopal church. I spent many years in the Episcopal church and held just about every layman role except deacon.



Then you should understand JEDP theory and Biblical source criticism and the different modes of interpretation of Sacred Scripture. I am sure you also know and understand the theology of the word covenant. the fact that the new covenant does not do away with none of the the old covenants and that the Greek word for covenant that is used, Diatheke, is a legal term that does not grant reciprocity to the person receiving or, most importantly, ACCEPTING, the contract. It is a contract that only goes one way, thus when God grants a covenant, He is the one making it and technically, He is the only one bound to it. The other party can simply choose to accept or walk away, at anytime.

Peace and Godspeed.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Quote:
On 2012-06-20 19:25, kambiz wrote:
Ron that's not talking against Jesus. That's reflecting on the correct interpretation of what the Son of God means. It's just informing the reader that a "literal" translation of the phrase "Son of God" is a dangerous state of understanding. A vast majority of Christian theologians would agree with this interoretation of its meaning Smile

I will give an example of someone who talks AGAINST someone else: "James is a liar, evil doer and everything he teaches is false"

So I ask again, is there any quotes from the Quran that talks AGAINST Jesus?

Kam


The term Son of God, Only Begotten Son etc... speaks of the incarnate Christ.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 04:01, mastermindreader wrote:
So the basic argument from some seems to be that the Bible is the literal word of God because the Bible says it is....


See first commandment, language thereof.

"I am...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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