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mastermindreader
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Jeff-

Most people I know who call themselves atheists either don't believe in God, or have an affirmative belief that God doesn't exist. I call the former position "weak atheism" and the latter "strong atheism."

An agnostic either doesn't know or care if God exists, or has come to a firm conclusion, based on reason, that it is beyond the scope of human knowledge to know whether or not there is a deity. I refer to the former as "weak agnosticism" and the latter as "strong agnosticism."

In general most atheists I know who have seriously considered their position, are actually strong agnostics.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 00:21, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-21 23:51, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-21 19:04, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-21 17:53, mastermindreader wrote:
So what day of the week was Last Supper on, how many angels were at Jesus' tomb, how many women came to the tomb, where did they go directly after, and to whom, if anyone, did they tell what they had witnessed?


BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.



BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT? Are you atheist/agnostic, or do believe in a non-Christian book? (I'm asking because I honestly don't know for sure what your faith is or isn't.)

1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) says: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"

Saying "Believe what you want" is not what the Christian Bible asks of you. That particular verse was the beginning of the end of my religious beliefs. I tried to find answers to defend my faith, but the more I read, the more it bacame impossible to give answers to legitimate questions about my faith. At least I tried though. I tried for years.

If a "believer" ever responds to questions about the Bible with a remark like "Believe what you want", they have either given up on their beliefs or well on their way.


Not really. Atheists always want proof of God's existence. I don't have to prove anything. I don't have to prove God's existence as their conversion is not my concern, because I don't care what they believe or choose not to believe. I care about them as a person, as a child of God, I pray for them, but I don't care about their belief or unbelief. I don't worry about things I have no control over, like them converting and drones circling the countryside spying on people (another thread). I can't even control whether I will go to bed at night or wake up in the morning. I just ask that when atheists quote or rather interpret Sacred Scripture they know what they are talking about, they know theology and they get their history straight. History is always hit or miss, quoting/interpreting of Sacred Scripture and theology are ALWAYS a big miss.

I also have to say your quote from 1 Peter is a bit out of context. Verses 13-22 instruct a believer how to act in the face of persecution. They are to remain Christ like, courageous and steadfast in faith, rejoice in their suffering because of their hope and not suffer the fear of sinners. They are not to return evil for evil and when someone sees them and questions why they do not fear then they respond with "Faith and Hope in Jesus Christ."

Peace and Godspeed.


"Atheists always want proof of God's existence"

Really? I think I missed that part in our secret atheists meetings. I spent most of my life believeing without question. I never asked for proof. Perhaps I should have questioned it years ago instead of blindly following the herd all those years.
Jeff J.
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It seems like atheism is misundersttod among the religious. Perhaps I should start knocking on doors on a Saturday afternoon dressed in a suit telling people there is no good news. Of course since we have no atheist book, I would have to hand them a newspaper or something. At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of. Either that or the theists who's only understanding of atheism is what they read about on a biased Christian site can do a few minutes of resarch on an actual non-biased site. Don't worry, Jesus actually encourages you to question His word. You just have to question it in the right places. If you're into Scientology, you aren't going to hear about Xenu on a Scientology sponsored site.

If you REALLY want an understand of other points of view, don't refer to a site that's designed by a religion who survives on your continued financial support to provide you with the correct information.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of.


Here we go again. You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement. So you *do* in fact have a belief. Moreover, it's a belief you have no proof for.

I guess you could say you're not trying to convince anyone of it, but having read several of your posts, I would believe such a statement to be false.

Of course, I wouldn't have any proof for my belief.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 02:52, mastermindreader wrote:
Jeff-

Most people I know who call themselves atheists either don't believe in God, or have an affirmative belief that God doesn't exist. I call the former position "weak atheism" and the latter "strong atheism."

An agnostic either doesn't know or care if God exists, or has come to a firm conclusion, based on reason, that it is beyond the scope of human knowledge to know whether or not there is a deity. I refer to the former as "weak agnosticism" and the latter as "strong agnosticism."

In general most atheists I know who have seriously considered their position, are actually strong agnostics.

Good thoughts,

Bob


That's a common definition. I actually often call agnostics "atheists who are afraid to commit", but in fact there are "gnostic atheists". It really boils down to a personal label, but some people take it too seriously and insist on a specific label. Personally I don't put much importance in it. I calll myself anything from non-religious to unsure and everything in-between, depending on how I'm asked.
mastermindreader
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The only problem I have with "strong atheism" is that I find it intellectually indefensible.
LobowolfXXX
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Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of.


Here we go again. You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement. So you *do* in fact have a belief. Moreover, it's a belief you have no proof for.

I guess you could say you're not trying to convince anyone of it, but having read several of your posts, I would believe such a statement to be false.

Of course, I wouldn't have any proof for my belief.


SIGH... Lobo, you calim that "You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement."

For the life of me I don't understand why some people feel that it's so important for believers to put words in the mouths of people or twist words around. It's mind boggling. Please show me ANYWHERE I've posted that I KNOW there is no God and I know that to be true (other than MY opinion that is mine and mine alone). Show me anywhere I wrote that. It can even be on another site (I'll link you other sites I post religious topics on and you can even check those). Maybe I had a stroke in the middle of a post and wrote that somewhere, but I doubt it.

A lot of religious people love putting words in our mouths, but it's just a BS. Prove me wrong and show me where I said that I "know" god is fake and I said so. I really want to know.

I hope you aren't just another religious bully who figures they can say whatever they want because nobody will call them on it.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:38, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????


That's not aimed at you, personally; just an observation that having an intellectually indefensible position doesn't often slow anyone down around here.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Back when I was defending criminals I had no problem taking intellectually indefensible positions. Smile

But, seriously, I'd like to see a well reasoned defense of strong atheism (as defined above). I never have, though. As I noted elsewhere, even Richard Dawkins, when pushed, has conceded that he is actually a strong agnostic.
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:44, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:38, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????


That's not aimed at you, personally; just an observation that having an intellectually indefensible position doesn't often slow anyone down around here.


lol
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:42, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of.


Here we go again. You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement. So you *do* in fact have a belief. Moreover, it's a belief you have no proof for.

I guess you could say you're not trying to convince anyone of it, but having read several of your posts, I would believe such a statement to be false.

Of course, I wouldn't have any proof for my belief.


SIGH... Lobo, you calim that "You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement."

For the life of me I don't understand why some people feel that it's so important for believers to put words in the mouths of people or twist words around. It's mind boggling. Please show me ANYWHERE I've posted that I KNOW there is no God and I know that to be true (other than MY opinion that is mine and mine alone). Show me anywhere I wrote that. It can even be on another site (I'll link you other sites I post religious topics on and you can even check those). Maybe I had a stroke in the middle of a post and wrote that somewhere, but I doubt it.

A lot of religious people love putting words in our mouths, but it's just a BS. Prove me wrong and show me where I said that I "know" god is fake and I said so. I really want to know.

I hope you aren't just another religious bully who figures they can say whatever they want because nobody will call them on it.


I love that I can get accused of putting words in your mouth by quoting you.

First, for the fifth or sixth time, I'm not a "believer," nor am I religious, nor anything else of the sort. Calling out your inconsistencies doesn't make me a theist.

Second, and speaking of twisting words, why would you challenge me to prove that you said you KNOW there is no God, when you can see from my comment that you excerpted that I didn't claim that you said it? What I said was that you said that you believe there is no God.

Indeed, it is mind-boggling. In one little paragraph, you talk about twisting words and putting words in people's mouths, and bend over backward to deny claiming that you "know" God exists, and never once have I even suggested that you said it.

now, if you want to address the point I actually made, rather than the one you're ascribing to me, it's very simple:

1) you believe God does not exist;
2) this belief is not based upon proof (in your next rant, please don't change this to have me claiming that you have no evidence for your position).
3) you appear to me to have at least some interest in convincing others that there is no God.

So to me, at least, it certainly seems that despite your protests, you DO in fact have beliefs (at least one, anyway) - an unproven belief, no less - that you're trying to convince others of. Just like your friends the evangelical Christians.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:47, mastermindreader wrote:
Back when I was defending criminals I had no problem taking intellectually indefensible positions. Smile

But, seriously, I'd like to see a well reasoned defense of strong atheism (as defined above). I never have, though. As I noted elsewhere, even Richard Dawkins, when pushed, has conceded that he is actually a strong agnostic.


Well, it's different when one gets PAID for it.

As to the other...don't hold your breath.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:44, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:38, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????


That's not aimed at you, personally; just an observation that having an intellectually indefensible position doesn't often slow anyone down around here.


Your exact words in reply to my post were "Here we go again. YOU'VE stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God". Then I ask you to back it up and you put your tail between your legs and claim that it wasn't directed at me personally. You're pathetic! (That's not directed at you personally. Just an observation I'm making in general).
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 04:03, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:44, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:38, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????


That's not aimed at you, personally; just an observation that having an intellectually indefensible position doesn't often slow anyone down around here.


Your exact words in reply to my post were "Here we go again. YOU'VE stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God". Then I ask you to back it up and you put your tail between your legs and claim that it wasn't directed at me personally. You're pathetic! (That's not directed at you personally. Just an observation I'm making in general).


I can almost assure you that Bob knows that wasn't an attack directed on him. I have the highest regard for his reasoning.

As for your quote, as noted above, you're done a great job of quoting my exact words - that you BELIEVE the statement "There is no God.". Unfortunately, the statement you asked me to back up was a statement that *I* never made (oh, the irony!): tap hat you claimed to "KNOW" there is no God.

I am happy to back up my statements, but not the statements of others that are incorrectly attributed to you.


But if it makes you feel any better...

HEAR YE, HEAR YE!

As far as I know, Jeff has never claimed to know that there is no God. And I have never said that he did.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 04:03, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:44, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:38, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????


That's not aimed at you, personally; just an observation that having an intellectually indefensible position doesn't often slow anyone down around here.


Your exact words in reply to my post were "Here we go again. YOU'VE stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God". Then I ask you to back it up and you put your tail between your legs and claim that it wasn't directed at me personally. You're pathetic! (That's not directed at you personally. Just an observation I'm making in general).



Quote:
On 2012-06-22 04:03, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:44, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:38, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:36, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Are you actually going to let a thing like that stop you?


??????


That's not aimed at you, personally; just an observation that having an intellectually indefensible position doesn't often slow anyone down around here.


Your exact words in reply to my post were "Here we go again. YOU'VE stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God". Then I ask you to back it up and you put your tail between your legs and claim that it wasn't directed at me personally. You're pathetic! (That's not directed at you personally. Just an observation I'm making in general).


I can almost assure you that Bob knows that wasn't an attack directed on him. I have the highest regard for his reasoning.

As for your quote, as noted above, you're done a great job of quoting my exact words - that you BELIEVE the statement "There is no God.". Unfortunately, the statement you asked me to back up was a statement that *I* never made (oh, the irony!): tap hat you claimed to "KNOW" there is no God.

I am happy to back up my statements, but not the statements of others that are incorrectly attributed to me.


But if it makes you feel any better...

HEAR YE, HEAR YE!

As far as I know, Jeff has never claimed to know that there is no God. And I have never said that he did.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of.


Here we go again. You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement. So you *do* in fact have a belief. Moreover, it's a belief you have no proof for.

I guess you could say you're not trying to convince anyone of it, but having read several of your posts, I would believe such a statement to be false.

Of course, I wouldn't have any proof for my belief.


Are you on something? Who's accusing of YOU putting words in MY mouth? It's the other way around. You replied to my post by saying "You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement."

Show me that you don't just have a big mouth and back up that statement with ANYTHING I've ever posted to show you aren't lying. I don't suppose because you just "assume" that atheists believe that, you figured you were safe there. I look forward to seeing where I ever said what you claim.
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of.


Here we go again. You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement. So you *do* in fact have a belief. Moreover, it's a belief you have no proof for.

I guess you could say you're not trying to convince anyone of it, but having read several of your posts, I would believe such a statement to be false.

Of course, I wouldn't have any proof for my belief.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-22 04:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-22 03:13, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
At least I won't get caught in any tricky questions I can't answer since I have no beliefs I'm trying to convince anyone of.


Here we go again. You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement. So you *do* in fact have a belief. Moreover, it's a belief you have no proof for.

I guess you could say you're not trying to convince anyone of it, but having read several of your posts, I would believe such a statement to be false.

Of course, I wouldn't have any proof for my belief.


Are you on something? Who's accusing of YOU putting words in MY mouth? It's the other way around. You replied to my post by saying "You've stated in these parts that you believe that the statement "There is no God" is a true statement."

Show me that you don't just have a big mouth and back up that statement with ANYTHING I've ever posted to show you aren't lying. I don't suppose because you just "assume" that atheists believe that, you figured you were safe there. I look forward to seeing where I ever said what you claim.










Quote:
On 2012-06-14 04:01, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote:
Lobo, If a person honestly believes there is no god and states that, then he is telling the truth.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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