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The great Gumbini
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Dreadnought,

I'm sorry that was actually meant for Steve. You and I are very much on the same page my friend and brother.

Eric
The great Gumbini
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Steve,

We need our parents when we are born and to guide us. How much more do we need God who knows ALWAYS the best way to guide us through life?


Good magic to all,


Eric
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 03:44, kambiz wrote:
Why don't you share with everyone what you think it is critter?

Kam


It is what it sounds like. I don't know how to simplify that any further.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 09:30, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 09:11, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 00:53, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover wrote:

Quote:
I already have a belief so I am not open to any more.


That comes pretty close to summarizing the difference between science and religion.


Not realy.

Wothout a Supreme Being science would not be possible. So science is dependent on a Supreme Being and not the other way around. Science cannot create a Supreme Being but a Supreme Being Can created what we term science. That is the difference. Without the Supreme Being you are back to the someting from nothing theory and that is why science endears this theory. It does away with the Supreme Being. Science forever wants to taste the forbidden fruit and play God. Do not mistake the forbidden fruit as researach and advancement for God gave us that potential, but rather wanting to know all that God knows and become Godlike, that is the forbidden fruit. Man was not satisfied in the Garden of Eden with no maladies. He wanted to know more and become just like God. Just as the angels fell so did man. The one thing he was asked not to persue is what caused his downfall, "The Forbidden Fruit". Questioning and discussisng The Forbidden Fruit would be a topic in of itself.

That's making the very loaded assumption that a supreme being even exists.
Even WITH a 'god' you are back to the "something from nothing" stance, since the 'god' allegedly either "came from nothing" or "always existed."
If the 'god' could have "always existed," why couldn't the elements that compose the constantly-in-motion universe?


Finally you got it right. God always was and always will be. However the second part of your statement, If the 'god' could have "always existed," why couldn't the elements that compose the constantly-in-motion universe?


It is a questioin that we have answered several times becasue until God created them they did not exist. They could not have come from nothing. they are nothing but elements and pocess no God like qualities. God made them just as He made everything else. While it is hard to believe as an atheist we get bacak to what I have been ssaying for quite some times now, believe what you want. I gave you my thoughts on where everything came from and I am sure yours differ being an atheist, so again believe what you want. I do.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 13:32, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 03:44, kambiz wrote:
Why don't you share with everyone what you think it is critter?

Kam


It is what it sounds like. I don't know how to simplify that any further.


This says a lot of things about your state of mind critter.

I ask you again to please elaborate what it is, so everyone may be educated fully like you obviously have been....

Go ahead......Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 09:39, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 00:25, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-23 22:06, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-23 21:19, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-23 12:47, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-23 09:14, acesover wrote:
Obviously the majority of people in this world have been fooled according to you as I believe the majority of people in this world are christians. I guess you atheists are just smarter than most everyone else. Smile Can't fool you guys first there was nothing then there was something then here we are Bang. And you are talking about a ball under a cup. Jeeeez.

BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT


Aces,

EVERYBODY in the world has been deceived by their own senses/perceptions/memory at one time or another. Claiming 100% certainty about anything is probably not a good idea. (and I'm 99.9999% certain about that statement) Smile

Yes, I AM talking about a ball under a cup! It either exists or it does not, right? Some wholeheartedly believe it does while some may not. But when the cup is lifted and the truth is revealed, we see that somebody was wrong. Somebody who "knew for sure" that they were correct in their belief.

No thanks, I will NOT "believe what I want." I will instead accept that which is backed by sound evidence, reason, and logic. And I will, if necessary, gladly dismiss that which I have previously accepted in the face of new, more convincing evidence for something else. That should be the correct approach, no?


Ron


OK then. Having said what you said above. Exactly what proof would you need to believe in God? What sort of sound evidence, reason and logic would make yo ubelieve in God? You did saay yoiu would except that which is back by those atributes? So again just asking?


An omiscient and omnipotent God would know what it would take to convince me. If he wants to leave convincing evidence (convincing to me), or reveal himself to me in some way, it would easily be in his power to do so.

But let me ask you, what would it take for YOU to believe in, say, Ganesha?

Ron


Who?

I already have a belief so I am not open to any more.

So you cannot reallyanswer my question can you? You said and I quote you here: "I will instead accept that which is backed by sound evidence, reason, and logic." but when I asked you what it would take you have no answer. So what you said is a lot of baloney right? I mean I am only quoting you not being a wise guy here.


Ganesha is the Hindu elephant God - I'm sure you've seen depictions.

"I already have a belief so I am not open to any more."

So once you establish that you believe something, you will not accept any new facts which may contradict your belief? Isn't that the definition of close-minded?


I see... you wan't specifics. Well, because fantastic claims require fantastic evidence it would have to be something that could ONLY occur as a result of an omniscient and omnipotent being. No wishy-washy "I feel the spirit of love" stuff will suffice. For example, I will go outside and look at the clouds and think of a phrase. If the clouds instantly and unambiguously reshape themselves into the phrase I am merely thinking of and remain that way all day while being witnessed, corroborated, and documented by others (who do not know what I am thinking), that would be very convincing for me. This would be a demonstration of omniscience (knowing what I am thinking) and omnipotence (instantly and expertly controlling the clouds). Another way would be to instantaneously halt the water flowing over Niagara Falls (as if frozen solid) at the EXACT day, hour, minute and second that I am thinking, and then to instantly restart it at exactly another day, hour, minute and second that I am thinking. This too must be widely observed, corroborated, and documented. Piece of cake for an omniscient and omnipotent being, no? The evidence would be there for all to see and document and it would be reasonable for me to conclude that a Supreme being had read my mind and carried out feats that are beyond the capabilities of mere mortals.


Ron


I do agree that it is a peice of cake for God to do those things. However I do not see it happening to bring you into accepting God. At least we now know what it takes to convince you. Thanks for that. Because that is what I asked and you answered. To bad you weren't around for the parting of the Sea or the changing of the Nile to blood. I belieive theyare beyond the ability of man also. But of course those that did not see this say it did not happen. So as time would go on there would be people that would say that what aGod did for you also did not happen.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:11, kambiz wrote:
This says a lot of things about your state of mind critter.


This says a lot about yours.

Why do I have to explain it? You're the one who said it- you explain it.
I Googled it and got a bunch of links from Bahai sites. I know I'm not the only one with Google. You can explain it, or they can Google it. You want me to organize research on a term that you brought up then my rate is $50/hour. You can PayPal the advance. That'll include a references section.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Kam-

Other than Baha'i law, what steps do you think will regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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I'm wondering how a proposal to satisfy the needs of all people would be applied to those who are sado-masochists or drug addicts. Smile

To avoid that interpretation it seems obvious that the governing council would be the ones determining what the real needs of the people are. It sounds like they would consider their decisions to be "for their own good" even if all of the people didn't agree.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:26, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Kam-

Other than Baha'i law, what steps do you think will regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples?


I'm not really sure Lobo. All I know is that the world is organically evolving to a recognition that we are all one human race.

Today we see several countries where there are severe persecutions happening where this reality of oneness is not being practiced. Maybe the US and its allies, rather than 'adjusting its relationship with other nations' over oil, would possibly in the future look at adjusting relationships to encourage an environment where love and harmony may have a better chance of existing. Better justice for all. That's all it's saying, nothing more nothing less, just better justice for the oppressed....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:32, mastermindreader wrote:
I'm wondering how a proposal to satisfy the needs of all people would be applied to those who are sado-masochists or drug addicts. Smile

To avoid that interpretation it seems obvious that the governing council would be the ones determining what the real needs of the people are. It sounds like they would consider their decisions to be "for their own good" even if all of the people didn't agree.


Bob, I say it again, you have completely misunderstood this entire concept....

Other than reading the relevant literature, I cannot assist in that understanding, it's too long winded for this forum...

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:20, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:11, kambiz wrote:
This says a lot of things about your state of mind critter.


This says a lot about yours.

Why do I have to explain it? You're the one who said it- you explain it.
I Googled it and got a bunch of links from Bahai sites. I know I'm not the only one with Google. You can explain it, or they can Google it. You want me to organize research on a term that you brought up then my rate is $50/hour. You can PayPal the advance. That'll include a references section.


Let there be no doubt that you have made a prejudiced comment, and your slithering out of it again critter....

I think acesover's comments to people like your dear self would be appropriate here....."believe what you want"

I would add also "show some balls and back up your words"

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:52, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:20, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:11, kambiz wrote:
This says a lot of things about your state of mind critter.


This says a lot about yours.

Why do I have to explain it? You're the one who said it- you explain it.
I Googled it and got a bunch of links from Bahai sites. I know I'm not the only one with Google. You can explain it, or they can Google it. You want me to organize research on a term that you brought up then my rate is $50/hour. You can PayPal the advance. That'll include a references section.


Let there be no doubt that you have made a prejudiced comment, and your slithering out of it again critter....

I think acesover's comments to people like your dear self would be appropriate here....."believe what you want"

I would add also "show some balls and back up your words"

Kam


How did I make a prejudiced comment?
My post is there for anyone to read. It's pretty obviously not remotely prejudiced.
Once again, you misrepresent my words by filling in the gaps from your own preconceptions- so who's prejudiced?

"Slither?" Are you kidding me?: "IT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE."
That is the explanation. How is it "slithering" to provide the ****ing explanation?

Seriously? My love of parsimony is the line that sets you off?

If you think I'm missing something then quit being such a smug little condescending... outstanding individual... and fill in what it is that you think is missing, Your Highness.

For such an "evolved being" you have a lot of growing up to do. I know I have a long way to go too, but the difference between us is that I don't claim to have the best way, it's just my way, and I don't care if you cotton to it or not.
Now, I do think you mean well.

But "balls?" I antagonize people several hours a day for free just to record what happens. I like you, but I sure as Hell ain't worried about your twisted little opinion of me.

Have a nice day.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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Ok, mate, whatever you say....you say it sounds awful, then you say it is what it sounds like i.e awful.

You made the comment. I was asking you to elaborate what you found awful about it?

You still refuse to answer my question....

.....and then you tell me I have a twisted opinion of you? Go figure lol

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 02:17, critter wrote:
Quote:
...I guess the application of a 'year of patience' for divorcing couples would come into play too...


I don't know what this is- but if it's what it sounds like then it sounds just awful.

*Edit* Looked it up. It's what it sounds like.


So here's all that I said. Pretty inoccuous. I have an opinion about one specific concept that Kam mentioned. Notice that my opinion is not of the entire religion, but one single concept. Notice that I didn't bash Kam's religion or its followers. I wasn't even bashing Kam.
But because my opinion was not a positive one, Kam has chosen to respond by bashing me and accusing me of slithering spinelessness.
I don't know what the Baha'i policy is on suppression of opinions, but I think Kam's views on the matter are clear.
Thanks, "buddy."

To be clear- I have many prejudices (as do we all) but I have none about the Baha'i faith. I have no opinion at all about the Baha'i faith as a whole. My opinions here are of what Kam says and nothing more.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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Yet I think you've bashed every single concept of the Baha'i faith that I have raised on every thread....

I'm not worried as long as there's some explanation behind your thinking, but you choose not to elaborate at all....

kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 16:24, kambiz wrote:
Ok, mate, whatever you say....you say it sounds awful, then you say it is what it sounds like i.e awful.


See below.

Quote:
You made the comment. I was asking you to elaborate what you found awful about it?


You did not ask that. You asked me to elaborate on what the concept is, not why I didn't like it.

Quote:

You still refuse to answer my question....



Wrong, I answered the question you actually asked. Now you're moving the goalposts.

Quote:

.....and then you tell me I have a twisted opinion of you? Go figure lol

Kam


See above.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 13:31, The great Gumbini wrote:
Steve,

We need our parents when we are born and to guide us. How much more do we need God who knows ALWAYS the best way to guide us through life?


Good magic to all,


Eric


I have the evidence of a lifetime for parents.
I have NONE for deity.

What's more, your analogy doesn't work. If we have a parent or guardian teaching us into adulthood, what's the need for a 'god?'
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 16:35, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 16:24, kambiz wrote:
Ok, mate, whatever you say....you say it sounds awful, then you say it is what it sounds like i.e awful.


See below.

Quote:
You made the comment. I was asking you to elaborate what you found awful about it?


You did not ask that. You asked me to elaborate on what the concept is, not why I didn't like it.

Quote:

You still refuse to answer my question....



Wrong, I answered the question you actually asked. Now you're moving the goalposts.

Quote:

.....and then you tell me I have a twisted opinion of you? Go figure lol

Kam


See above.


Lol.....far out mate.....

critter, what do you "THINK" this concept is, is pretty clear in that it is asking for your "understanding."

What was the thought process that made you conclude that it is awful?

It's not rocket science.....

I leave you in peace Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 15:10, acesover wrote:

It is a questioin that we have answered several times becasue until God created them they did not exist.


HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT???

WHY couldn't the universe, in some form, have always existed?
WHY does it HAVE to have been CREATED?
WHY does an intelligent 'god' HAVE to exist for anything else to exist?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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