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TomBoleware
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Who told you God already had your life planned out anyway?
You most certainly can make choices. You can change your direction
in life right now, right here.


That Randi junk about prayer is a bunch of bull.

"A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported on doctors' renewed interest in spirituality's role in health. In a review of 27 studies, one researcher reported that in 22 of them, religious involvement had a positive effect on good health, including cases of cancer. In another massive study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, researchers showed that heart patients who had someone praying for them suffered fewer complications than other patients. Whether it's God at work or just a good attitude, patients with rich spiritual lives may have a better chance of recovering from serious illness. Scientists tread lightly when offering explanations -- they shy away from attributing anything to a supernatural force. But they say that, for certain diseases, religious activity does seem to be associated with better health." --Debra Fulghum Bruce PhD


But anyways, I agree, you not really looking for God.

Tom
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R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 18:02, TomBoleware wrote:
Who told you God already had your life planned out anyway?
You most certainly can make choices. You can change your direction
in life right now, right here.


That Randi junk about prayer is a bunch of bull.

"A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported on doctors' renewed interest in spirituality's role in health. In a review of 27 studies, one researcher reported that in 22 of them, religious involvement had a positive effect on good health, including cases of cancer. In another massive study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, researchers showed that heart patients who had someone praying for them suffered fewer complications than other patients. Whether it's God at work or just a good attitude, patients with rich spiritual lives may have a better chance of recovering from serious illness. Scientists tread lightly when offering explanations -- they shy away from attributing anything to a supernatural force. But they say that, for certain diseases, religious activity does seem to be associated with better health." --Debra Fulghum Bruce PhD


But anyways, I agree, you not really looking for God.

Tom


For those things that don't require "choice" (i.e., natural events, illness, etc.), would you say that God has a plan? It's one of those platitudes that gets lots of usage among believers. If you don't agree that God has some sort of plan, then you would be in the minority of believers I suspect. So assuming God does have some sort of "plan", why intervene with prayer? Why not just let things play out?

Who said anything about Randi???

As far as the study you cite, there's nothing conclusive that points to a God answering prayers. A "better attitude" is even proferred as a possible explanation for some cases which have shown improvement. Have you ever heard of the placebo effect? It's a very real (and much studied) effect which has nothing to do with God. It works with atheists just as well as with theists. And I'll ask again, if prayer works, then why won't God heal amputees?


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
The great Gumbini
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Steve,

that's easy---our parents do the best they can. But they like us are not perfect. God is. The best parents are those who guide their children toward God. This will help them to start the most important relationship they will ever have.

BTW did you here the news in Egypt today everyone? Keep a close eye on this. Although "promises" have been made that International agreements will still be respected ONLY time will tell and I believe "promises" will be broken. Now more than ever even non-believers will look into the Bible to see what will happen. All other material mentioned in this thread WILL NOT be consulted---NOT ONE. Why? The answers are in the Scriptures alone. Here is my challenge to ALL non-believers look up and see what YOUR books say about THIS time period. Because of the recent events (past 60 years to today) Biblical Scholars and other interested parties are seeing the time spoken of in Ezek:36-40 is starting to come full circle. My advice is simple---read ALL the books you want---But STUDY the Bible in it you will find the answers.


Good magic to all,


Eric
R.S.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 18:02, TomBoleware wrote:
But anyways, I agree, you not really looking for God.

Tom


And again, why should I even be looking for any gods?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Why won't God heal amputees? I have no idea.
Maybe he looks over them in another way. I don't know.


Why you need God?

Ron you probably have fire insurance on your house.
Yet you don't really believe it's going to burn down. Do you?
But you just never know about the future. Do you?
Kind of sad to pay those premiums all your life, just in case.

Nothing else, I guess God would be good insurance if all the others are right. Smile


Tom
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acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 17:57, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 17:26, acesover wrote:
You have nailed it. Research, knowledge! The magic words, research and knowledge. There is absoutely nothing wrong with research and what comes from it, that being knowledge. However research which produced knowledge of the Big Bang Theory is at once used to say...There we found it, there is no God there is no Supreme Being it all started with the Big Bang deal. Until you ask yourself what started? Are we sure about the Big BAng Theory? If so Does it eliminate God? The answer to both of these questions is NO.

Man is not satisfied with his discoveries which were always there, because God allowed them. He must say now I have found the secret of the universe. I am on equal footing with this so called God who now I know does not exist becasue I found out the truth. We are here because of one big accident. There is no God. I am God, Man is God, Science is God. Besides even if there is God I am as smart as He is now because I know all. I am the smartest thing in the universe and know all the answers. Before man gets carried away with his own self importance let me just say, wrong, wrong, wrong. Believe what you want.

If it makes you happy that there is no God or if you believe there is God and you are as all knowing as he is than be happy and believe what you want. If you thnk man and science can find the answers to the creation then fine, believe it. Believe what you want. Let me say this to all you atheists. There is nothng that can convience you that there is a God. Let me further add there is nothing that you can say that will convience me that there is not God. Now are we both closed minded or is it just ones point of view that makes the other closed minded?

Believe what you want. Who cares? Certainly not all those who believe in God. They would like you to believe in God, but they don't have a stake in it if you don't. With the exception of a few missionaries that want to just bang their head aganist a wall and try and convience you, most people just don't care what you believe. However I just want to add this. It seems to upset atheists that we believe in God. I don't know why it bothers them. They are like antimissionaries trying to convience you that there is no God. Let it go.

So in answering your question I am just saying there is no line to be drawn to research and advancement. But if you think that further researach is going to provide you with answers that proves there is no God you are on a hopless quest.


It amazes me that you have participated in all these threads, yet you still post such an innacurate and misleading representation of science, the BB theory, and atheists.

Ron


OK here is an explanation of The Big Bang Theory. The firstr paragraph anyway.

You are here: Science >> Big Bang Theory

Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

OK so much for that, First there was nothign then there was something. I nailed that.

Most scietists that delve into the creation of the universe discount the Supreme Being as a possible solution. I nailed tht

Atheists. Don't believe in God. I nailed that.

Which of the above statements are the ones I am misrepresenting according to you?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
TomBoleware
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I think some scientists do believe in God. Don't they? Yes of course they do.

I do know for a fact many Doctors go to church every Sunday.

Nope I don't think God has been ruled out in the medical world
like some want you to believe.

Tom
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acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 19:33, TomBoleware wrote:
I think some scientists do believe in God. Don't they? Yes of course they do.

I do know for a fact many Doctors go to church every Sunday.

Nope I don't think God has been ruled out in the medical world
like some want you to believe.

Tom


That is why I said most.

Also lets not confuse the words scientist and doctor to mean the same thing. While they may to some people the general idea of these two words are different.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
TomBoleware
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Yes, I should had pointed that out.

Thanks
Tom
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kambiz
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On 2012-06-24 05:58, The great Gumbini wrote:
Kam,

I looked at pg 22 and saw several questions. Can you please tell me which one you would like for me to answer? Also when someone denies the deity of Christ they are calling Him a lier and therefore talking against Him. To deny His deity is to deny Him. that's the point I'm making. But please if you don't mind let me know which question.


Good magic to all,


Eric



Hi Eric,

My apologies for not responding to this sooner....

In the Quran, it talks about the twin nature of these Divine Messengers. There is a divine element and a human element, according to the Quran. Jesus does say that He and the Father are one, which points out His divine nature. There are several aspects of Christian theology which talk about Jesus's human nature too, and you have quoted the parts of the Quran that talk about this. I think you may find this exploration of the issue of interest:

http://carm.org/jesus-man

...so compare and contrast the quote you provided:

Sura 43:59 Jesus was no more than a mortal whom {Allah} favored and made an example to the Israelites."


.....with this one

Surah 2:253 "To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit"

...and this following quote which even elevates Jesus's rank and station to be even ABOVE Muhammad...

Surah 3:55 "Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

....so you see, there is plenty of praise for Jesus as well Smile

I'm not a Muslim, and trust me if anyone should dislike Islam, its me, with all the Baha'i persecutions that are happening in Iran at the moment and over the past 160 years. But, I'd like to think like this, and be fair in my judgement of things:

"If Jesus talks about God, and Muhammad talks about God, and they both praise God to the highest, then there is agreement between Jesus and Muhammad on the most important matter of them all, GOD....

....it follows therefore that any DISAGREEMENTS that are perceived by us seekers of the truth, must be a shortfall in our UNDERSTANDING of their teachings, not a shortafll in the teaching itself. God is perfect, we are imperfect. Should we be fair in our judgement, we will see answers to all our confusions, were we to investigate without a preconceived notion that one is right and the other is wrong. There are reasons for everything, but saying one is right and the other is wrong just does not make sense to be a valid reason, since it is clear that they both praised God so highly"

that's my thoughts on this. Are there any parts I could clarify further for you? Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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In response to your other request in that quote Eric, I would like to know the answer to these questions:

1. How do you explain the reality that ALL religious books, even those by Zoroaster, the Buddha, and Krishna, who came before Jesus, talk about their path being the correct path to God?

2. How do you rationalize the clear change of message from God, as we transition from Old Tstament to New Testament?

Thanks again Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 10:40, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 10:00, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-23 22:06, R.S. wrote:

An omiscient and omnipotent God would know what it would take to convince me. If he wants to leave convincing evidence (convincing to me), or reveal himself to me in some way, it would easily be in his power to do so.

But let me ask you, what would it take for YOU to believe in, say, Ganesha?

Ron


It depends on what definition of omniscient and omnipotent you are using. Theologically, He has given you everything you need. In John's last Supper Discourse (Chapter 15) and the Matthew and Mark account of the Last Supper, Jesus (God) knows that there will be those who do not believe. In John 15, He prays for His disciples and those that come after them and believe, He doesn't pray for everyone, He doesn't pray for the unbelieving, because He knows no amount of evidence will ever change their mind.

Peace and Godspeed.


I'm using the commonly accepted definitions; - all knowing. Omnipotent - all powerful. What other definitions are there?

So under those definitions, it would be easy for him to convince me. I would venture to say that it is a weak God indeed who cannot even convince someone of his existence.

Besides, you indicated in another thread that it is possible for lifelong atheists to make it to Heaven. So belief is not all important apparently. Care to elaborate on how exactly atheists can find themselves in Heaven after they die?


Ron


Since we are talking theology the theological definitions are the ones. If we were talking biology then we go with any biological definition that may exist.

God is all powerful, but in in so far as it is within His nature. He cannot contradict Himself. His omniscience allows His to know past, presence and future. Since, He dwells in eternity, and thus all things are open to Him. He knows all that is possible.

Again, He knows that some people will not believe and will be lost. But He likewise knows that a person can change and thus provides the means for the change. It is up to the person to accept and believe. He has given you everything you need to believe, the rest is up to you.

And yes, I did say it was possible for an atheist to get into Heaven. BUT I also said that is CONDITIONAL as it depends on the state of the person's soul and their human disposition and then they are commended, as is everyone, to the mercy of God, which trumps judgment. The conditions are free from mortal sin and the disposition to willing try not to sin and the acceptance of Jesus Christ, which can come even after death, how long after death, no one knows. But we know that Hell is eternal separation from God, a state freely chosen by the individual not imposed by God (He's just giving the person what they want).

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 11:25, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 09:55, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 09:30, Steve_Mollett wrote:

That's making the very loaded assumption that a supreme being even exists.
Even WITH a 'god' you are back to the "something from nothing" stance, since the 'god' allegedly either "came from nothing" or "always existed."
If the 'god' could have "always existed," why couldn't the elements that compose the constantly-in-motion universe?


Because then those elements would be God.


Would those elements be 'god' if they were not intelligent. A 'god' is traditionally conceived as being an intelligent entity.


Yes, those elements would be because they would be consubstantial (of the same nature, essence and substance) with God, but those elements would possess intelligence because they were consubstantial. Human beings are not consubstantial as we are of a different nature. We are human, He is divine. Jesus is a divine person, He is consubstantial with God the Father. Christ possessed a human nature but was not a human person, His personage was divine.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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kambiz
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Dreadnought, when you say "acceptance of Jesus Christ", what is the rationale behind that? I respect your thoughts here Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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I always thought the deal with the New Testament was that God came down to Earth and lived as a human and thought: "This kind of sucks. Maybe I should cut people a little slack."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dreadnought
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Because Jesus Christ is God and is the reconciliation between us to God.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 22:43, critter wrote:
I always thought the deal with the New Testament was that God came down to Earth and lived as a human and thought: "This kind of sucks. Maybe I should cut people a little slack."


No, He primarily came here as the ransom to be paid for our transgressions.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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kambiz
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On 2012-06-24 22:44, Dreadnought wrote:
Because Jesus Christ is God and is the reconciliation between us to God.

Peace and Godspeed.


So when you say He is God, what is your understanding of this? The Infinite made Himself finite?

...also, how can He be God and a reconciler between us and God at the same time?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 22:43, critter wrote:
I always thought the deal with the New Testament was that God came down to Earth and lived as a human and thought: "This kind of sucks. Maybe I should cut people a little slack."


Well by that statement it shows you thought wrong. Of course...believe what you want. Especially if it makes you feel better and all fuzzy inside. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Dreadnought
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He is not finite. He is not a human person, He is a divine person.

Forgiveness of sin means that there has to be some sort of reparation paid by the offender to the party offended. Since God is the person offended the only person that can pay a reparation to God is God. Jesus assumes human nature, not personage, in order to pay that reparation. He reconciles us (the world) to Himself.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
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