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critter
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Shomer Shabbos!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 00:58, The great Gumbini wrote:

And God still hates divorce. People change things. God stays the same.



And at one time your god(s) loved polygamy, slavery and the murder of infants. At least it didn't complain when some of its more important followers had multiple wifes. It put down very specific rules for the owning and management of slaves and instructed its armies to cut unborn babies out of the wombs of their mothers.
It also demands capital punishment for very minor crimes.
So let's hope your god(s) doesn't always stay the same Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
kambiz
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Eric and Dreadnought. I think its important to understand that all religious Scripture has two components: spiritual teachings and social teachings. The spiritual teachings of the Bible are undoubtedly changeless. God will not change the spiritual teachings for anyone. The reality is, the spiritual teachings of the Bible are no different to the spiritual teachings of the Buddha: love, compassion, truthfullness, trust, loyalty etc etc. This is where the spiritual education of God's Will is manifested.

The SOCIAL teachings however, must change according to the evolution of human consciousness. Where in the Bible does it talk about the equal validity of science and religion as twin entities to discover truth?

In 1 Corinthians 14:34 it talks about women not being able to speak in the Church. Is that a social teaching that is applicable today? I could go on and on....How is all this fostering to the needs of society?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 01:09, mastermindreader wrote:
I've got to admit, though, that even though I presently consider myself a Deist, I still feel very strong ties to the Catholic Church and I constantly wrestle with questions of faith.

But that's my own personal journey, so it's really not that relevant here, except perhaps to explain why I still will occasionally try to explain Church doctrine as I have come to understand it.

Good thoughts,

Bob



Bob, I knew this about you too Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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My point is, here we are, it's shabbas, the sabbath, which I'm allowed to break only if it's a matter of life or death...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 01:15, kambiz wrote:

In 1 Corinthians 14:34 it talks about women not being able to speak in the Church. Is that a social teaching that is applicable today? I could go on and on....How is all this fostering to the needs of society?



There is a very good reason that Catholic's don't take many parts of the Bible literally and why doctrine is base on the Magisterium and Apostolic tradition as well as Scripture.

Women are allowed to speak in Catholic churches today. In fact, there is evidence that women were very active in the early years of the Church as described in those Pauline documents that have been positively attributed to Paul. (Several are not and are believed by biblical scholars to have been written by later authors under Paul's name.)
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 01:29, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 01:15, kambiz wrote:

In 1 Corinthians 14:34 it talks about women not being able to speak in the Church. Is that a social teaching that is applicable today? I could go on and on....How is all this fostering to the needs of society?



There is a very good reason that Catholic's don't take many parts of the Bible literally and why doctrine is base on the Magisterium and Apostolic tradition as well as Scripture.

Women are allowed to speak in Catholic churches today. In fact, there is evidence that women were very active in the early years of the Church as described in those Pauline documents that have been positively attributed to Paul. (Several are not and are believed by biblical scholars to have been written by later authors under Paul's name.)



....and so NOW we come to the point of prophecy Smile

Why do Catholics take the matters related to the prophecies related to Jesus's Second coming so literally then?

I am still interested in some understanding as to how Jeus fulfilled the Judaic prophecies of the Messiah?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 01:56, kambiz wrote:

Why do Catholics take the matters related to the prophecies related to Jesus's Second coming so literally then?



Most Catholics don't. It's only certain sects of fundamental Christians that get all frothy about the end times and look forward to the end of the world. But then many have regarded Catholicism as something of a death cult anyway as they spend so much time worshiping it.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
mastermindreader
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Payne is right. They don't. Both Dreadnought and I have frequently stated that and have also pointed out that a straight literal interpretation can actually be dangerous.

As Payne pointed out, biblical literalism is a product of 19th Century American Southern Protestant fundamentalism.

As to prophecy, here's a little of the modern history:

Quote:
Prophecy and certain other spiritual gifts were somewhat rarely acknowledged throughout church history. From 1904 to 1906, the Azusa Street Revival occurred in Los Angeles, California and is sometimes considered the birthplace of the Pentecostal movement. This revival is well known for the "speaking in tongues" that occurred there. Some participants of the Azusa Street Revival are claimed to have prophesied. Pentecostals believe prophecy and certain other gifts are once again being given to Christians. The Charismatic Movement, which began to move into mainline denominations, also accepts spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues and prophecy.

The "father" of the Charismatic movement is said to be William M. Branham, who started a religious cult based on his prophecy. His predictions include the End of the World in 1977, Benito Mussolini's last stand in Ethiopia, egg-shaped cars, and more during sermons recorded from 1947 to 1965.

In 1994, "The Prophetic Movement" came on the scene, largely due to the influence of the Toronto, Brownsville and Kansas City revivals. Along with the Charismatic Movement's speaking in tongues and prophecy, "The Prophetic Movement" distinguished itself from past movements with physical twitching, moaning, sightings of gold dust, "glory clouds" and gems that (allegedly) fell from heaven. (Maxwell, 1994 p1)

With this movement arose famous prophets like Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Jill Austin and Todd Bentley.

The Prophetic Movement, and the prophets it produced, was not without controversy. In March 2011, former Elijah List web master, Kevin Kleint, released his account of events behind the scenes of the Elijah List (a main online distributor of prophecy) in his blog series, "My 7 Years Working for the Elijah List".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy#Later_Christianity
kambiz
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So the majority of Catholics do not believe in a literal interpretation of "end times" Scripture. We have some consensus there. So, what is the position of the Catholic Church on what the conditions will be that signifies Jesus's Return and how will we recognize Him?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Again, from the Catechism (where you will find answers to probably every question you have about Catholicism):

Quote:
1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628
kambiz
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So, according to this section that Bob quoted, only God knows the day and hour of Jesus's Return, I assume this relates also to His coming being akin to a "thief in the night".

When He comes, He will "pronounce the final word on all history"

What will this "word" give rise to?

Quote:
1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.


So when Jesus returns therefore, one way in which we would recognize Him, is that His word would give rise to the unification of the human race. Is that correct, or am I going "way" off course?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 03:22, kambiz wrote:
So the majority of Catholics do not believe in a literal interpretation of "end times" Scripture. We have some consensus there. So, what is the position of the Catholic Church on what the conditions will be that signifies Jesus's Return and how will we recognize Him?

Kam


There are different ways to interpret Sacred Scripture, a literal translation is only one way. To arrive at the correct or most relevant interpretation one has to consider the time frame -History- ( what was going on, who was being addressed, why was this important) the literary element ( is it a parable Job and Jonah are parables, however the prophet Jonah did exist, vs. a strict teaching, is it poetic), one has to understand how people communicated.

The Catholic Church's eschatological teaching is that one should not be worried about some future date that may or may not come when one is alive. Sacred Scripture says the Son of Man of come like a thief in the night and no one knows the date or hour. Therefore, one is only to be concerned with the state of their soul in the present moment.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
kambiz
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On 2012-06-28 09:10, Dreadnought wrote:

The Catholic Church's eschatological teaching is that one should not be worried about some future date that may or may not come when one is alive. Sacred Scripture says the Son of Man of come like a thief in the night and no one knows the date or hour. Therefore, one is only to be concerned with the state of their soul in the present moment.

Peace and Godspeed.


Hi Dreadnought, so what is the individual's role and responsibility when Jesus returns?

I say this, because as you consider His return from the clouds, with loud trumpets etc etc has symbolic meaning, then He will obviously walk on the earth when He returns. So how will you recognize Him? And are you spiritually obliged to recognize Him?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Dreadnought
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On 2012-06-28 01:15, kambiz wrote:
Eric and Dreadnought. I think its important to understand that all religious Scripture has two components: spiritual teachings and social teachings. The spiritual teachings of the Bible are undoubtedly changeless. God will not change the spiritual teachings for anyone. The reality is, the spiritual teachings of the Bible are no different to the spiritual teachings of the Buddha: love, compassion, truthfullness, trust, loyalty etc etc. This is where the spiritual education of God's Will is manifested.

The SOCIAL teachings however, must change according to the evolution of human consciousness. Where in the Bible does it talk about the equal validity of science and religion as twin entities to discover truth?

In 1 Corinthians 14:34 it talks about women not being able to speak in the Church. Is that a social teaching that is applicable today? I could go on and on....How is all this fostering to the needs of society?

Kam


You're correct, there are two components, Faith and Works which are stressed all throughout the scriptures old and new testaments, notably in Paul with Romans and in the letter of James. And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality. The Church sides with Sacred Scripture and Tradition, that it is immoral, when science can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it is biological and not a choice, then it will always side Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. But, either way, the tenet is always the same, love of neighbor is above all else. In spite of other people's actions (Christians and other people of faith) we do not shun the person and cause them to be an outcast of society. A recent example of the Church changing its stance was Her position on capital punishment. Considering that, in this day and age, a person can be incarcerated for the rest of their life with no chance of release, then there is no need for the death penalty, except in very, very, the most extreme of rare cases where incarceration will not work.

In fact, you seem to be confusing this. Society may require a different outlook, and if the Church needs to change that outlook it will but the tenets of faith stay the same. The whole issue of contraception is a prime example. Just because "everyone uses it" or 60% (and that number seems to keep changing depending on the media organization reporting on the subject) of Catholics don't adhere to Church policy on contraception, doesn't mean the Church will change it's stance on contraception. The tenet of faith says, no. There could be 100% non-compliance the Church will still say no. As I said earlier, the Church doesn't bow to the whims of man that changes like the wind.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 09:52, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 09:10, Dreadnought wrote:

The Catholic Church's eschatological teaching is that one should not be worried about some future date that may or may not come when one is alive. Sacred Scripture says the Son of Man of come like a thief in the night and no one knows the date or hour. Therefore, one is only to be concerned with the state of their soul in the present moment.

Peace and Godspeed.


Hi Dreadnought, so what is the individual's role and responsibility when Jesus returns?

I say this, because as you consider His return from the clouds, with loud trumpets etc etc has symbolic meaning, then He will obviously walk on the earth when He returns. So how will you recognize Him? And are you spiritually obliged to recognize Him?

Kam


I don't know. Let me call Him and ask Him what will He be wearing that day.

Everyone seems to be worried about stuff they have no control over. TRUST ME, I am sure He will make His presence known to all. He says so in Sacred Scripture, that there will be no doubt in anyone's mind.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
critter
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"A man once asked God- 'What's a million years to you?'
God said- 'a second'
The man asked- 'God, what's a million dollars to you?'
God said- 'a penny'
The man said- 'God, can I have a penny?'
God said- 'sure... in a second.'"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
ClintonMagus
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On 2012-06-28 11:31, critter wrote:
"A man once asked God- 'What's a million years to you?'
God said- 'a second'
The man asked- 'God, what's a million dollars to you?'
God said- 'a penny'
The man said- 'God, can I have a penny?'
God said- 'sure... in a second.'"


That made my day! Smile
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
kambiz
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On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-06-28 22:04, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 10:13, Dreadnought wrote:
And the social teachings don't change either, not without real compelling evidence. I gave the example of homosexuality.



Hi Dreadnought, why is the Church not putting homosexuals to death then?

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


....and lets also talk about enslaving children as a debt-bondage, why does that not still happen today?

Kam


My understanding from your posts is that the Baha'i position is that the Bible is correct, but these sorts of legal edicts were temporary for their time, as opposed to the more eternal spiritual stuff?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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