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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts 
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Regression just ain't what it used to be.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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It worked in the USSR
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
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On 2012-06-20 18:43, balducci wrote: Our stimulus money here didn't go to banks etc - Some of it went to normal people who would spend it and so keep it circulating - old age pensioners for example got a one off payment of a $1000 which most could really use. A lot of the stimulus money went on infrastructure - roadworks, ports etc so people were employed, companies awarded contracts and the economy stimulated in addition to the increased future productivity from the improved infrastructure. Crazily enough with our geographic isolation from the rest of the world and the media constantly headlining foreign financial woes, most Australians have held a consistent view for the past few years that we are on the edge of an economic abyss and no matter how long our record breaking good times last, they cling on to their silly pessimism. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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On 2012-06-20 23:50, LobowolfXXX wrote: Okay, I'll bite. What's the case for sales tax being progressive?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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Oz is great.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Point is you would raise taxes on about 50% of people by doing that Payne.
You couldn't've 100% of money from too earners and not touch the debt and deficit.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 07:15, landmark wrote: Reconstruction of the phrase "regressive tax" aside, a regressive tax is one where the tax rate decreases as the amount being taxed increases, and a progressive tax is one where the tax rate increases as the amount being taxed increases. So in a strict sense, of course, a sales tax -a constant tax rate- is neither progressive nor regressive. Clearly. Be that as it may... What is a sales tax? Broadly speaking, it's a tax on stuff that is purchased. A number of items that are disproportionately purchased by lower income consumers, either in comparison to higher income consumers (e.g. Food stamps - the poor buy more with food stamps than the rich do), or in relation to the overall percentage of "stuff" that is purchased (e.g. Groceries - a higher percentage of the total stuff purchased by poor people is groceries, compared with the percentage of total stuff purchased by rich people) is tax-exempt, thereby lowering their overall sales tax rate. For instance, and I'm going to make up numbers for the sake of convenience - In a state with a sales tax base rate of 10%: Lower-income family A buys $5,000 worth of groceries one year, and also spends $5,000 worth of other items, e.g. Clothes, school supplies, etc. Again, to keep the math simple, none of the grocery purchases is taxable. So they pay 10% of the "other" in sales tax, or $500. Out of the $10,000 they spend on stuff, their effective overall sales tax rate is 5%. Higher-income family B buys $10,000 with of groceries, and also a Lexus for $50,000, computer equipment and toys for $20,000, and another $10,000 for clothing and miscellaneous. The groceries, again, aren't taxed, but the clothes, car, and electronics are. They pay 10% sales tax on the $80,000 of non-groceries that they buy, or $800, out of the $90,000 they spend on stuff, their effective overall sales tax rate is 9%. Because of the nature of the exempt items - consumer staples - that are tax-free, the greater amount being taxed has directly led to a higher overall effective tax rate. Pretty much, in effect, the very definition of tax progressivity.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
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Politicians swear to us they are clever - they are not - if they were clever they would provide governance that was mean, green, lean and clever enough to not require taxation - lots of user-pay and profit on national resources. Selling non-renewable resources cheap just because it's sitting there in the ground is abhorrent to me - just Google 'Nauru' to see an extreme example of where that leads.
One seldom highlighted feature of Australia's resilience against the GFC is our national savings. When I was a kid we were often reminded that Aussies were absolutely terrible at putting something aside for the future. In the early 90's the government introduced compulsory national superannuation. This has bipartisan support. Those unfamiliar with the word may need to Google 'bipartisan'.  This has resulted in us having massive national savings which also helped buffer us against the recession that struck almost everywhere else. I saw estimates somewhere that if the US had a similar scheme (obviously something that's not going to ever happen) they would have had savings equivalent to three times what the housing bubble cost and consequently it would have been just a blip instead of a disaster.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts
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On 2012-06-21 08:10, Dannydoyle wrote: Never said it wouldn't. Quote:
You couldn't've 100% of money from too earners and not touch the debt and deficit. Yet somehow maintaining a higher taxation rate in the past allowed us to pay off the massive debt incurred by WWII. But it won't work today? Interesting.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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On 2012-06-21 08:51, LobowolfXXX wrote: What's missing in your analysis is what percentage of income is being paid. Compared to an income tax, a the poorer person is paying a higher percentage of his or her income with a sales tax than a richer person does.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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We have spending levels much higher and much more sustained than we did then.. My point is we need to stop the spending. I do naturally disagree with your proposal incidently.
You never mentioned actually having those higher up paying FOR REAL which would bring the necessary rate a bit lower without the deductions. Shockingly we are not so far apart.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 12:35, landmark wrote: It's missing because it's incidental to the definition of a progressive or regressive tax. A progressive tax (like income tax) is one in which the tax rate goes up as the amount of tax paid goes up; a regressive tax is one in which the tax rate goes down as the amount of tax paid goes down. The fact that a poorer person pays a higher percentage of his or her income in sales tax than aricher person does doesn't make it a regressive tax.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
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To be clear, I was talking about a so-called value added tax. There are different ways to implement them. It is not clear cut whether one is progressive or regressive without carefully examining its definition and the overall tax structure etc. A VAT is not the same as your run of the mill national sales tax, so sorry if I misspoke earlier ... I made the error of assuming everyone understood the context of the terms I was using.
"The "value added tax" has been criticized as the burden of it falls on personal end-consumers of products. Some critics consider it to be a regressive tax, meaning that the poor pay more, as a percentage of their income, than the rich. Defenders argue that relating taxation levels to income is an arbitrary standard, and that the value added tax is in fact a proportional tax in that people with higher income pay more in that they consume more. The effective progressiveness or regressiveness of a VAT system can also be affected when different classes of goods are taxed at different rates. To maintain the progressive nature of total taxes on individuals, countries implementing VAT have reduced income tax on lower income-earners as well as instituted direct transfer payments to lower-income groups, resulting in lower tax burdens on the poor.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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The phrase "regressive tax" has been co-opted for the negative connotation of the word "regressive" and misapplied to refer to any tax perceived as unfair because people of reduced means pay a higher percentage of their income toward them.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Value added tax in addition is punitive.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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One can argue that the sales tax is unfair, and I'm not arguing against that. I'm not assigning a value judgment here. But if it were a "regressive tax," the tax rate would decrease as the amount spent increases. It doesn't.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
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So now you are saying that it is NOT regressive and hence progressive after all?
Reiterating what I said before, an overall VAT system can be progressive if it includes subsidies or direct transfer payments to low income groups. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=555742
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 14:21, balducci wrote: I was just talking about sales tax, as practiced in the USA, not a VAT. It's not "NOT regressive hence progressive"; it's neither regressive not progressive. It's a flat tax. The tax rate doesn't changed based on the amount subject to the tax.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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My manufactured scenario is akin to, as you say, "progressive if it includes subsidies." By subsidizing groceries, sales tax in the USA in a sense creates a progressive effect by raising the effective sales tax rate on larger amounts of items purchased, but I wouldn't call it a progressive tax (though I think it's at least as reasonable to call it progressive as it is to call it regressive, and probably, for the reasons given, moreso).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-06-21 12:36, Dannydoyle wrote: Without loopholes and a restoration of the Capital Gains and Estate taxes the upper rate probably could go down to 45% or 50%. the only tax breaks I'd give would be for business and industries to maintain the majority of their workforce in the states. And yes, spending needs to be cut. A lot of it in the military. We could probably cut their budget by half and still maintain a sufficiently strong defensive force as there s a lot of waste and fraud that needs to be addressed. Many social programs too need to be reassessed and modified. Job training and placement need a higher priority over simply doling out cash. And fraud and waste also needs to be addressed in those programs as well. There are a lot of hard decisions that need to be made. Unfortunately most politicians don't have the fortitude to make hard decisions
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » An economic stimulus plan that actually worked (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jun 21, 2012 05:49 am 
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