In another thread, someone asked "what is your belief" and I answered "human creativity". I'd thought it would be interesting to elaborate.

Human creativity! my god, how wonderful. Why do we remove focus away from human achievement towards some every changing unknown invisible deity in the sky: let's give credit where credit is due: man (in the broad sense meaning man and woman - mankind).

You may have the few natural wonders left that man has not left his mark on and I'll take Manhattan any day. When I think of Bach, Glenn Gould, John Cage, Henry Miller, Rothko, Richard Hugo, The Beatles, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Chaplan, Louis Armstrong (particularly Louis Armstrong), Thelonious Monk, Bird, Dizzy, kerouac, Van Gogh, Proust, Dyan (both)....when I think of the genius that have inspired me, thrilled me, made my life full rich, exciting interesting, transcendant....

How could I not worship human creativity. Please don't give me that crap about it was god's gift. these wonderful humans are our gift to ourselves and speaks to the potential in each of us to achieve an impact on the world of human culture, knowledge,...

In other words. I don't worship a god. I worship the body electric.

The kicker: it doesn't mean a rat's tuchus.
Men DIE; civilizations fall; books and monuments crumble; suns go supernova; galaxies collide and the ever-expanding universe slowly unravels at the molecular level.
Kansas had it wrong in "Dust in the Wind"--the earth and sky don't last forever either.

Either learn to enjoy pushing the boulder uphill for the sake of doing so--or rationalize why doing so has some 'purpose.'

It seems futile to worship an ephemeral, evanescent, will o' the wisp. Of course, some cultures have a very developed and refined view of futility. "No Gods Worth the Killing" was one of my teachers' book about the Japanese ethos. Don't think it was ever published, but the manuscript was very interesting.

"The kicker: it doesn't mean a rat's tuchus. "

except I still get to listen to bach and I will to the day I die.
I'll still be able to listen to Louis Armstrong and be inspired.
I'll still be able to read Thomas Pynchon and marvel at the depth of his jokes.
I'll still be able to see Harold and Maude.
I'll still be able to stand in front of a Rothko.
I'll still be able to see the world trade center rebuild melt into the clouds above.
I'll still be able to go to the Ear Inn on a Sunday night to hear Jon-Erik Kellso play jazz.
I'll still be able to hear Buddy Guy and watch him bring out a 13 year old blues prodigy.
I'll still be able to listen to Kind of Blue.


and for me.

That is a f'ing good rat's ass.

Hitler...Khmer Rouge...Manson...Lucas...Stalin...

OMG...I was going to post this but I had left out Lucas and Khmer

?

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. You two are really nuts.

Are you saying that these are folks you admire?
Are you saying that because there was a Hitler, then Bach is unimportant.
Are you saying you hate human kind?

I'm not the one who believes in a god that destroys the earth with a flood, destroys a man for a bet (Job), and sends down random plagues and pestilence.

If you guys are examples of christian behavior, I'm rooting for the romans.

Hi Slide,

As Blaise Pascal said, "How hollow is the human heart, and how full of filth." Certainly human beings have created works of art that are transcendental, beautiful, and as eternal as human life will be.

But human beings are also capable of, for want of a better word, evil.

So why worship the human being?

By the way, I recommend the following 1 hour BBC program by the philosopher Roger Scruton. It is about beauty in art, and why beauty has disappeared from modern art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla......UP_M83W4

May I add, that the works of art that you and I both admire so much, were the works of individuals. Individuals.

Thanks for that link, Woland. That's my evening viewing tonight.

"But human beings are also capable of, for want of a better word, evil. " So are dieties.
"So why worship the human being?" Because human beings created everything including dieties.
"May I add, that the works of art that you and I both admire so much, were the works of individuals. Individuals." individual human beings

Did I say all humans were worth while? Obviously not. and I didn't say I worship humans: I said I worship human creativity. It certainly doesn't' surprise me that aces and lobo find Hitler to be on the same plane of human creativity as bach, I just don't agree with them.

Wheres Jonathan with his "Reading is Fundamental" tag?! Since, as I've said repeatedly (including once in the past 24 hours in a post directly addressed to you), I'm not a theist, let alone a Christian, I suspect that I'm NOT an "example of Christian behavior."

Before I continue, at the risk of being understood, I'll repeat myself. I am not a Christian. I am not a theist.
In case that's in any way unclear, I'm not a Christian. I am not a theist.


I am not surprised that you "don't know what [my comments are] supposed to mean," I apologized for being too lazy to fill in the gaps.

If you specifically cite bad works purportedly done by God (again, not to confuse you...look up to the post I'm quoting...you know, the flood stuff, the Job stuff, etc.) as a reason not to worship God, and you claim to worship man, then you must, similarly, deal with the evil works certainly done by men.

No self-respecting atheist fails to call out a Christian for giving God all of the credit for the good in the world and none of the blame for the bad. Similarly, if your object of worship is man, then you don't only get Coltrane, The Beatles, and Miller; you also get Hitler, Stalin, etc. How on earth could it be otherwise?

I was not saying, nor suggesting, anything at all about the "levels of creativity" of Hitler and Bach. It does not surprise me that you thought I was.

I apologize for applying your own logic to your own example.

Your fellow non-Christian,
LobowolfXXX

So you're like an Episcopalian, or a Lutheran or something?

The plane of creativity. Wow such a catchy phrase. Let me ask. Just what portion of that plane do you occupy? Or are you a wannabe? Are you a composer, or sculptor or a muscian of any kind. Are you capable of adding to this human creativity that you speak of? If you were capabe of any of these would that satisfy and fulfill you? Or would there still be something missing?

Floundering around saying I worship the body electric and human creativity, sounds cool but does not mean much of anything. It probably impresses a few people (mostly high school girls). Actually you live in a fantasy world of others peoples greatness and creativity. What you fail to realize is that everyone has the potential to be wonderful. Are parents not wonderful when you see the love they have for their children? Is that not wondefful in your eyes? What is more inspiring to you a child saying to his mother, I love you mommy, and throwing his arms around her, or a composition by Bach? Which touches you more?

Some people make excellent truck drivers, some make fantastic entertainers some make great composers. Who is to say whose greatness is more astounding? You must find in yourself, what and who you are. While it is an enjoyable diversion to enjoy what others in the arts have accomplished, it is positively ridiculous to worship it.

You are lost. Try and find yourself.

Lobowolf, thank you for your healthy injection of rational thought and consistency into this discussion.

Stone,

Thanks for noticing. You will not waste the evening.

LOL!