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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Whats all the fuss about new mentalism effects when same reaction can be get going back to the roots (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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TonyBrand
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Excellent post, David. While I agree that it is necessary to put a "modern spin" on the classics, Osterlind shows that it can be done quite effectively. And, might I add, he does this on his other DVDs as well (i.e. ETMMM).

I agree that presentations must change in order to stay relevant, but I am not so sure about methods. I am not saying that mentalists should not strive to innovate, but sometimes the most effective/direct methods are those that have been time-tested.

-Tony
Cristobal
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No one's saying old methods do not work anymore, but thankfully there are new ones. Not better nor worse. Some will work better for some things and others in some other cases. If you only have a hammer all problems seems nails. I have the same feelings when I see people trying to reproduce all kind of effects using a NW when there are other better methods to accomplish some effects.

Disclaimer: I LOVE and use billet working, pendulums and all the classic stuff.
TonyBrand
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:03, Cristobal wrote:
No one's saying old methods do not work anymore, but thankfully there are new ones. Not better nor worse. Some will work better for some things and others in some other cases. If you only have a hammer all problems seems nails.


Agreed. However, I fail to see the point of using another tool to pound a nail if using a hammer has been continuously proven effective - just for the sake of using another tool. Then again, if the performer feels the other tool is more effective for him or her, he or she should use it. In the end, I feel it all comes down to using what works best for the individual.
Peter_turner
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:15, TonyBrand wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:03, Cristobal wrote:
No one's saying old methods do not work anymore, but thankfully there are new ones. Not better nor worse. Some will work better for some things and others in some other cases. If you only have a hammer all problems seems nails.


Agreed. However, I fail to see the point of using another tool to pound a nail if using a hammer has been continuously proven effective - just for the sake of using another tool. Then again, if the performer feels the other tool is more effective for him or her, he or she should use it. In the end, I feel it all comes down to using what works best for the individual.


You hit the nail in the head (sorry I couldn't resist!)

Pete
TonyBrand
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Quote:
You hit the nail in the head (sorry I couldn't resist!)

Pete


Ha! I was thinking of writing a similarly horrible pun. Well played...you nailed it! Smile
Peter_turner
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:22, TonyBrand wrote:
Quote:
You hit the nail in the head (sorry I couldn't resist!)

Pete


Ha! I was thinking of writing a similarly horrible pun. Well played...you nailed it! Smile


:D
Slim King
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My advice ... have at least 2 methods for every effect. Each will appear different than the other slightly. Between the two is where IMPOSSIBILITY LIVES!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Shrubsole
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I think commercially it's to look like you are doing something new. That's a must if you play the same venue (too) often.

But then that doesn't of course mean that you have to buy something new all the time. If you know all the basic principles and many twists and turns, you should be fully able to do a performance that looks like a new routine to the audience, yet is as old as the hills.

Another problem with doing the latest 'fad' trick, is that everyone else will be doing it as well and that's never a good thing in magic and very detrimental in mentalism. You are meant to be a mind reader/etc and not doing any sort of trick. This is blown wide open if someone in your audience has seen exactly the same 'trick' (often with the same words) performed by someone else.

That is also why if you do buy the latest fad, work on it until it doesn't look like how the instructions say it should before performing it.

So be unique, be inventive! A whole act lasting a lifetime can be done just using the classic ideas and you own imagination. Buy less and think more!
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Dr Spektor
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On 2012-06-25 15:40, LoveKey1988 wrote:
I have to disagree with the affirmation that people today stopped believing in supernatural and the power of the mind.


I agree with you - in fact, almsot anyone can go back to the fears of the unknown and create the strangest explanations in the right contexts and the right stresses... IMHO
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Dr Spektor
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On 2012-06-26 06:42, Cristobal wrote:
If you only have one method you can only predict one or two things in the same show... or use repeatedly the NW. The more methods you have in your arsenal, more presentations you'll be able to perform. I mean, if in a routine you need to predict a name, a city and an amount of change you can use the NW three times... Leaving aside the fact that this is artistically very boring and poor theater, you are repeating the same technique three times in a row.


Although even with one method - you can have multiple effects and presentations - that is truly the key.

Anyone read Ascanio vol 1?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Dr Spektor
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:03, Cristobal wrote:
No one's saying old methods do not work anymore, but thankfully there are new ones.


True - but not as many as people might be led to believe
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Cristobal
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 12:55, Dr Spektor wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-26 06:42, Cristobal wrote:
If you only have one method you can only predict one or two things in the same show... or use repeatedly the NW. The more methods you have in your arsenal, more presentations you'll be able to perform. I mean, if in a routine you need to predict a name, a city and an amount of change you can use the NW three times... Leaving aside the fact that this is artistically very boring and poor theater, you are repeating the same technique three times in a row.


Although even with one method - you can have multiple effects and presentations - that is truly the key.

Anyone read Ascanio vol 1?


Of course I read it. I have the two first volumes of "La Magia de Ascanio" right here (the original spanish edition). It's obvious that with one method you can accomplish multiple effects (if not, there would be more methods than routines, which is absurd). I don't get your point... I did not say otherwise. I usually imagine an effect and then choose the best method to accomplish it, not the other way.

Quote:
On 2012-06-26 12:56, Dr Spektor wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:03, Cristobal wrote:
No one's saying old methods do not work anymore, but thankfully there are new ones.


True - but not as many as people might be led to believe


Of course...

Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:15, TonyBrand wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-26 11:03, Cristobal wrote:
No one's saying old methods do not work anymore, but thankfully there are new ones. Not better nor worse. Some will work better for some things and others in some other cases. If you only have a hammer all problems seems nails.


Agreed. However, I fail to see the point of using another tool to pound a nail if using a hammer has been continuously proven effective - just for the sake of using another tool. Then again, if the performer feels the other tool is more effective for him or her, he or she should use it. In the end, I feel it all comes down to using what works best for the individual.


Absolutely true! But anyway, I think that trying new methods (just for the sake...) is a good thing in order to experiment and try to improve, or to find something that you are more comfortable with.
Dr Spektor
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On 2012-06-26 14:27, Cristobal wrote:
I don't get your point...


You thik I do??!?!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Cristobal
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Quote:
On 2012-06-26 12:55, Dr Spektor wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-26 06:42, Cristobal wrote:
If you only have one method you can only predict one or two things in the same show... or use repeatedly the NW. The more methods you have in your arsenal, more presentations you'll be able to perform. I mean, if in a routine you need to predict a name, a city and an amount of change you can use the NW three times... Leaving aside the fact that this is artistically very boring and poor theater, you are repeating the same technique three times in a row.


Although even with one method - you can have multiple effects and presentations - that is truly the key.

Anyone read Ascanio vol 1?


By the way, have you read Juan Tamariz' "La Vía Mágica"? He show about 20 methods to do one effect, and explain why to study all the possible methods for an effect Smile
mindshrink
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These days I see multiple methods in use to achieve just one effect....just increasing the level of difficulty in the eyes of the spectators.
Slim King
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ROSHAMBO uses four or five mathematical methods yet there is NO math. Hiding the syringe is the key to the Dr.s SECRET!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Paul
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Quote:
On 2012-06-25 14:18, LoveKey1988 wrote:
I am wondering why do so many new effects appear in mentalism that are basically the same and some are quite talked about even if the same reaction can be get from a similar effects that you can start doing after going trough the first step of 13 steps to mentalism?


Going back to the original post, rather than some of the weirder interpretations of it, I would think a number of the newer people interested in mentalism are simply unaware of the older stuff or think a lot of it 'dated' (and in some cases not as easy to access) whereas it is much simpler to shell out on the the latest mental masterpiece or start building up your library from the latest 'cutting edge' material.
Peter_turner
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Quote:
On 2012-06-30 09:11, Paul wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-25 14:18, LoveKey1988 wrote:
I am wondering why do so many new effects appear in mentalism that are basically the same and some are quite talked about even if the same reaction can be get from a similar effects that you can start doing after going trough the first step of 13 steps to mentalism?


Going back to the original post, rather than some of the weirder interpretations of it, I would think a number of the newer people interested in mentalism are simply unaware of the older stuff or think a lot of it 'dated' (and in some cases not as easy to access) whereas it is much simpler to shell out on the the latest mental masterpiece or start building up your library from the latest 'cutting edge' material.


I agree completely Paul! My favourite book is (and I think will always be) Practical mental effects. I have said openly any of these routines are only a stones throw away from being totally cutting edge (in this day and age).

Pete
Paul
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I should add that I'm not knocking the newer stuff, whilst I always thought if something worked it didn't need fixing, variety and personal interpretation are always welcome. For a time it seemed like every mental act was starting to follow the same format and seem very similar (with simply showmanship and presentational skills lifting some above the others), but I think mentalism is moving into another cycle now. Although the cycles tend to be driven more by presentational approaches rather than methodology.

Practical Mental Effects was a favorite of mine too, Peter. If you don't have it, you should try and obtain a complete file of "The Jinx" (from which the material in the book was drawn). It can be picked up quite reasonably in pdf format on disc.

Paul.
Peter_turner
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I have them, they are genius Smile

I agree as well about if something is not broken don't fix it! I invent new things for me (though I always have the classics as backup)I Pm'd you Smile

Pete
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