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stoneunhinged
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I thought we were going to prune the list rather than offering our own versions of a top ten.

My own complaint with Bob's list is that it is "too American". Pain, Stowe, Sinclair, and W&B are not easily justified as world-shaking. I would replace Paine with Locke, for example. But the reason I didn't profer Locke in the first place is that I seem to associate the term "dangerous" with having had a largely negative impact. Locke wouldn't fall into that category.

I would keep Stowe on the list--in spite of the fact that the impact was more positive than negative--because it wsa indeed massively provocative, and because the American Civil War was certainly of world-wide consequence.

Removing Kant from the list was an interesting choice, too. And ignoring Machiavelli is also surprising.

Might I suggest we go back to the idea of deleting items together, as a group.

Up for deletion: Obama. It is not in any way clear to me how this book has had any real significant impact. Again, compare it to Machiavelli: do you think anyone will read Obama's book 500 years from now? Maybe, but only as a historical curiosity. It is not "dangerous" in any normal sense of the word. It won't cause any wars or intellectual conflicts. The best Obama himself can hope for is that it will keep selling copies to supplement his income after he goes into retirement.

So, unless anyone wishes to defend the claim that Obama's book is one of the ten most dangerous books ever written, let's delete it from the list.
Steve_Mollett
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After lots of weighing, here's my 10 (in the order they were listed):

4. Anon, Anarchist Cook Book
5. Hitler, Mein Kampf
6. The Prophet, Quran
7. LaVey, Satanic Bible
11. Rand, Atlas Shrugged
17. Mao, Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung
26. Machiavelli, The Prince
31. anon, Protocols of the Elders of Zion
33. Hubbard, Dianetics
37. The Old and New Testament (Let's include all translations etc., here)
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
stoneunhinged
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If we just want to post our own top ten out of the forty, here's mine (and also in no particular order):

1. Darwin, Origin of Species
2. Kant, Critique of Pure Reason
3. Hitler, Mein Kampf
4. The Bible
5. Marx, Capital
6. The Prophet, Quran
7. Machiavelli, The Prince
8. Mao, Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung
9. Rushdie, Satanic Verses
10. anon, Protocols of the Elders of Zion

That's my pick from our forty. My own strictly personal list would differ.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 09:32, stoneunhinged wrote:
But the reason I didn't profer Locke in the first place is that I seem to associate the term "dangerous" with having had a largely negative impact. Locke wouldn't fall into that category.


But that is NOT how you defined "dangerous" in the OP. I tried to stick with the definition you gave there:

Quote:
Let's take "dangerous" to mean something like, "resulting in some manner of social upheaval"


No mention whatsoever of "having a largely negative impact."

Sorry if I jumped the gun by providing my own top ten out of the original list. I thought we were just going to each post our selections out of the forty and then come up with a final list based on consensus choices. I didn't know were were going to argue for or against individual books. That approach would go on forever.
Woland
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Hi Stone,

I agree that Kant leads the list. I am certain that nobody will read "Dreams From My Father" 500 years from now, but it's impact has not yet been fully assessed.

If 500 years is the criterion, I would narrow your list to Kant, the Noble Qu'ran, Das Kapital, and the Bible. I think very few people read Darwin's Origin even now, the Woerte des Vorsitzenden Mao Tse-Tung will fade away, and The Satanic Verses is also more talked about than read. The Protocols will probably live forever, however, and are certainly the origin of much mischief.
critter
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So... are we debating or just doing our own lists? Just want to know which one before I put any work into it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 13:31, mastermindreader wrote:

But that is NOT how you defined "dangerous" in the OP....



Well, who cares how I originally defined it? I'm a very confused man.

Don't listen to me. Smile

Besides, I've never started a single thread with "rules" that anyone ever abided by. So everyone can do what they want.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 14:02, critter wrote:
So... are we debating or just doing our own lists? Just want to know which one before I put any work into it.


I'd prefer a debate.

But I ain't the boss round here.
mastermindreader
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Haha-

Okay- lets debate. There is only one grandaddy dangerous book - the original Gutenberg Bible. Not just any Bible, mind you, but the one that came off the printing press that eventually led to all subsequent dangerous books becoming available to the masses.
stoneunhinged
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Agreed.
stoneunhinged
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(In all seriousness. Little moments like the above are the reason I love conversation so much. Sometimes--BANG!--someone says something worth thinking about for a while. Thanks, Bob.)
critter
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Steve Guttenberg wrote the bible? That explains so much!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Woland
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I'd vote for Wycliffe's as even more world-changing than Gutenberg's.
landmark
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My ten:

1. Darwin, Origin of Species
6. The Prophet, Quran
9. Marx/Engels, Communist Manifesto
10. Freud, Interpretation of Dreams
12. Stowe, Uncle Tom's Cabin
13. Galileo, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems
17. Mao, Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung
24. Carson, Silent Spring
37. The Old and New Testament (Let's include all translations etc., here)
38. Paine, Common Sense

Though I think Paine, Stowe, and Carson are stretching it a bit.
I also have to go along with Bob in that the availability of the Gutenberg Bible was perhaps as important (maybe more so) as its content.

Actually I thought Lobo was proposing some kind of elimination tournament among the forty. Lobo, care to elaborate and set up a system?
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-01 16:33, Woland wrote:
I'd vote for Wycliffe's as even more world-changing than Gutenberg's.


My point, which I thought was obvious, was that Gutenberg's Bible - as the first book printed with movable type - was the grandaddy of all "dangerous" books that would become available to the masses.
LobowolfXXX
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My idea was to have a little knockout tournament, where we could vote on individual match ups, majority rule. For the first round, everyone takes a vote on 20 different match ups - From 1 vs. 40 on the final list to 20 vs. 21 (total always adding to 41). That will bring it down to 20, then one more round would get us 10. Maybe 48 hours per round, starting at midnight tonight?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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1. Darwin, Origin of Species
2. Kant, Critique of Pure Reason
3. Paine, Age of Reason
4. Anon, Anarchist Cook Book
5. Hitler, Mein Kampf
6. The Prophet, Quran
7. LaVey, Satanic Bible
8. Et.al., Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
9. Marx/Engels, Communist Manifesto
10. Freud, Interpretation of Dreams
11. Rand, Atlas Shrugged
12. Stowe, Uncle Tom's Cabin
13. Galileo, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems
14. Roth/Stone, Bridge is a Partnership Game
15. Marx, Capital
16. Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird
17. Mao, Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung
18. Hernstein/Murray, Bell Curve
19. Gödel, Über formal unentscheidbare Sätze der "Principia Mathematica" und verwandter Systeme
20. Wollstonecraft, Vindication of the Rights of Women
21. Obama, Dreams from my Father
22. B.F. Skinner- Walden Two
23. Friedan, The Feminine Mystique
24. Carson, Silent Spring
25. Spencer, Principles of Biology
26. Machiavelli, The Prince
27. Sinclair, The Jungle
28. Luther, Ninety Five Theses
29. Rushdie, Satanic Verses
30. Miller, The Crucible
31. anon, Protocols of the Elders of Zion
32. Cleland, Fanny Hill
33. Hubbard, Dianetics
34. Wolfe, 101 Things to do 'til the Revolution
35. Keynes, Economic Consequences of the Peace
36. Kerouac, On the Road
37. The Old and New Testament (Let's include all translations etc., here)
38. Paine, Common Sense
39. Woodward and Bernstein, All the President's Men
40. Ringer, Looking Out for #1

My Scorecard:

Origin of Species (over Looking Out for #1)
Critique of Pure Reason (over All the President's Men)
Common Sense (over Age of Reason)
Old & New Testaments (over Anarchist's Cookbook)
Mein Kampf (over On The Road)
Quran (over Economic Consequences of the Peace)
Satanic Bible (over 101 Things to do 'til the Revolution)
DSM (over Dianetics)
Communist Manifesto (over Fanny Hill)
Protocols of the Elders of Zion (over The Interpretation of Dreams)
Atlas Shrugged (over The Crucible)
Uncle Tom's Cabin (over the Satanic Verses)
95 Theses (over Dialogue...)
The Jungle (over Bridge is a Partnership Game)
Capital (over The Prince)
To Kill a Mockingbird (over Biology)
Silent Spring (over Quotations from Mao)
The Bell Curve (over The Feminine Mystique)
Walden 2 (over Formally Undecidable...)
Vindication of the Rights of Women (over Dreams from My Father)

Most interesting match ups: Paine vs Paine (numerical oddity as they happened to show up as numbers meeting in round 1), and The Bell Curve vs. The Feminine Mystique.
I think that was an unfortunate matchup, as they could both easily be top 10. I might have voted the other way had Stone not changed the definition of "dangerous" to be open to personal interpretation). (Ditto one or two others)

Another thing I think is that people should be able to lobby for their choices, and you can change your vote for any matchup, up until the deadline. People may be persuaded by others who are more well-versed about a particular choice.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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The problem is that the set up of matches are arbitrary, based solely on their positions on the list. Thus, as you noted, a book that could well deserve to be in the top ten can be matched against another obvious top ten selection, thus forcing one of them to be eliminated.

I still think the best way is for each poster to nominate his top ten from the list and the final selections should be the ten books that are on the most lists.
landmark
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Since no one has replied yet, and since I already posted my top ten list, I'm going to give my results of the match up that Lobo proposed. We could actually do both. One thing--when I mentioned this list to my son, the second book he named after The Bible was the Wealth of Nations. Can't believe we missed that one! Anyway, here are my winners of each fight:

Origin of Species
Critique of Pure Reason
Common Sense
Old & New Testaments
On The Road
Quran
Satanic Bible
DSM
Communist Manifesto
The Interpretation of Dreams
Atlas Shrugged
Uncle Tom's Cabin
Dialogue...
The Jungle
Capital
Biology
Quotations from Mao
The Feminine Mystique
Walden 2
Vindication of the Rights of Women

Edit: oh , I see I wasn't supposed to do this until midnight. Don't read this for the next twenty minutes Smile
mastermindreader
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Again, I think the match ups are arbitrary and will result in books being in the final list that most will agree don't belong there.

For example, if the next match up puts the "On the Road" up against "The Feminine Mystique," one of them will automatically be in in the final ten even though IMO, neither even remotely belongs there.
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