IMHO. I can see reasons for both hand positions. If the hand is down there is less chance of the spectator opening the hand prematurely . Yes, the hand up could be considered more natural. But I really do not think the spectator cares they just want to be amazed.
Jim

Again, it depends on who is seeing thsi "hand position." If it is the spectator himself then it may be easy to justify why strange actions will produce strange results. For other observers of the effect any weird hand position can draw attention to the wrong place at the wrong time. Such a strange postion can be OK is the dirty work has alredy been done and is offered as the reason for the magic. If you offered a stranger a coin and said, "Clench this in your fist," how would they take it hand hold it?

The trouble here is, methinks, that the switch occurs at the moment of placing, thus requiring strange actions or positions to pull it off. If the switch is accomplished at some other point in the effect flow, then the hand position can be treated as inconsequential -- the only necessity being to keep the hand closed until the proper moment of reveal.

Yes, it is possible to openly and visibly place the switched coin in their palm without detection, and ways to switch the coins at the moment of reveal or discovery. None of these approaches will ever be popular, however, because they are not of the "wanna see a trick" variety of magic effects. Instead consider that while performing a CSB or Misers Dream or Two in Hand you suddenly ask a spectator to hold a coin and "keep it warm" or something -- then execute a suprise trasnformation in their hands, thank them for the magic and continue.

Yes, Al -- I am talking about effects performed thousands of times with real people.

I appreciate seeing new moves here (for me) that I can steal and modify for some future effect or moment. I cannot do a Crimp very well becasue of crippled hands, but the exploration of effects send my by Vinnie have led to other sleights that I can do.

Ditto for some of Al's work -- though not with coins.

Mb is an inspiration because he daily performs for strangers everywhere just becasue he can.

Magic to be emulated. Now if I can just see a person here that I would like to emulate. Sigh!

Pabloinus
It is clear that you have not performed copper silver xchange in someone's hand.
This is evident when you say, "...personally I think..."

If you would say, "This is what I do," I would have more faith in your words.

My point is that what looks good in a video may not sell well to real people. That is all I am trying to say. But I keep getting kicked for a number of made up reasons. If you respond to this post by saying you do one of these routines and it works great, I would like to hear details of your success. Maybe I will learn something. All I am getting here is a bunch of "subject changes," "goal post moving," and personal slams. Could someone please explain how those first two routines could be done well and explain to me the technique they actually used to accomplish those moves. I could never in my life perform those first two routines as depicted. I simply do not have the skill to do so. Anyone that can do that is a master in my eyes. But I want to see or hear how they did it for real people. Don't show me another video. Why are some just showing more videos to cover up the fact they can't answer the question?
Al Schneider

Good point ott,

I would say that normal spectators don't care about any of this really, don't know what to look for or know what's actually going on. The Magi has complete control, even putting a coin in their hand, and yes all they want to be is amazed. They can care less as to techniques, deep thinking as to an effect, whatever, all the stuff Magis put a lot of time into. They just react to the magic and the dressing you put around it as to presentation.

Having performed copper silver for many years in restaurants. The problem I have had with the routine was that the spectator helping might not remember where the copper coin was and where the silver coin was and if they forget - the transpo is not magic as they get confused.

There are ways around this,

I hpe this helps.

Thanks for the videos Vinny. I always loved your creative routines.

Vinny
You gave this thread the right name, Bombs Away!

Al I offered you a demo with the handling with the firsttwo demos ... when I place the coin in the spectators hand\ they see the coin ur to the very last second before the switch is made.
anther method I use is just toss the coin in the spectators hand , I tell him to close his hand as fast as he can so I canot get to the coin this also works but it is not as good as the first one
vinny
ps
I forgot http://youtu.be/0ZFfWwKtDG4 to mention that the crimp palm can also be used as a one handed vanish

Al, I agree with your insight about videos. I learn most of my coin magic these days via great video teaching. BUT in many cases if I try to present the effect exactly the same way live, It just doesn't work. I've mentioned angles in another but there is so much more.

Adjustments NEED to be made. Curious this isn't mentioned more often---in fact, I've never seen it mentioned!

Al, you are correct I do not perform, I thought it was implied in my first post when I I said I am mora an spectator and both ways, yours and Vinny would fooled me. At least from what I saw on the videos.
I mentioned that the first routine for Vinny I did not like it because it was not clean as his second one is.
Also I said that I liked yours, basically for the slow pace that makes the trick cleaf. I do have a question on yours of why did you choose to use the palm down for the spectators it looks unnatural way of receiving a coin, also the change in pace when you move the coins fromright to left and left to right, I thought it could be noticed.
I do understand these are videos, and in person maybe all my comments do not apply, but I am interested in understand your thinking process for the palm and the change of pace

On your point about Vinnys trick, I don't see what you indicated as a problem, I will look again.

Pablo

Please note the availability of a FREE C/S Transposition effect at http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=3&0

Funs pleeas semnd me a copy..
Pablo, the bombs away effect is meant for real world not a camera which restricts me by trying to stay in frame.. I normally use both the hands of the spectator,, the effect is very clean .
when I dro0p the silver coin thru my hand and it turns to coopper I get gasps form the spectator.....
any way here is another transpo coin under the card
remember the camera is very un forgiving....... http://youtu.be/ZIK82s1B54o




vinny

OK
Here's the deal.
In copper silver in hand exchanges the spectator will rarely accept the coin without some question.

I cannot begin to tell you how big a subject this is with magcians around the world. And for centuries. Vinny and MB seem to think it is a matter of asking the spectator to hold the coin. THE SPECS SIMPLY DO NOT DO THAT.

The traditional way this is done is the magician does a coin switch and puts the coin into the hand of the spec. Then the magician closes their fingers over the coin. Then the magician forces the spec to turn their hand palm down. Then the magician glares at the spec with a look of death and says, "Don't open your hand."

Other magicians throw the coin into the specs hand telling the spec to close their hand around it. This is repeated twice more teaching the spec how to hold the coin. On the third toss, as the spec is now bored but trained, a switch is executed and the spec has the right coin but doesn't know about it.

Some magicians go through an elaborate story line to accomplish this.

For example, Scotty York has a nice story line He worked in a bar so had to deal with very difficult situations. The story line to get the person to hold the coin is twice as long as the trick. However, it accomplishes the end. In the presentation he offered he warned us not to tell anyone as it was his and he would sue anyone that gave it to others. Don't know if is right or wrong but I will respect his wish. It was offered at a meeting of the New York Coin Club or whatever it is. The group run by David Roth, Rubenstein and Gallo. Ask them about it. They would have more authroitY to tell you about it than me. Scotties story is quite good.

The point here is that a lot of people have tried to handle the situation of getting the person to hold the coin without a premature revelation. There is no effort to do that in the two clips offered at the beginning of this thread. They are offered as gifts from god and everyone is expected to submit posts taht say, "Vines you are so cool."

I can only conclude that vines does not know what he is talking about because he does not address this problem. I just get a lot of hand waving and in the end I am told I am a *&(&^^%$ or whatever and everyone agrees.

Furthermore, I had to watch those two videos several times to be sure the copper and silver changed places. bishthemagish is correct, the audience has a very difficult time keeping track of where the silver and copper is. In many of the routines of this sort I have seen, the spec has no idea what coin should be in their hand when they open it. Vines doesn't address this issue at all. Again, I can only conclude that he has never done those two routine specifically for anyone.

Now about my routine. I will not say it is stellar. However, it addresses these problems and seems to work well. You may have noticed that in the routine the color of the coin is repeated several times. And the helper says Go ___________ Go. They are saying the name of the coin that is supposed to be in their hand then I open my hand and the coin they are describing is in my hand.

Now the bit about having their hand palm down. The point here is that I am not putting the coin into their hand. From their perspective, they are grabbing the coin from my hand. I move the coin under their hand but they grab it. They are trying to trip me up. They believe if they grab it quick they will have one up on me. You see, they feel they are in control. This eliminates the problem of them opening their hand when they get the coin. I do not think the video kids understand this issue. In my presentation, the spec believes they are in control. In those other two presentations, the spec is part of the act. They do exactly what they are trained to do. And everyone applauds how great the performace is. In the real world the spec will not close their hand at the right time and will look at the coin after it is placed into their hand. UNLESS SOMETHING DRASTIC IS DONE.

Well, that is my point.

Now the hounds will chase me down and rip my argument.

But for those that care, there it is.

Al Schneider

I agree with you completely, and thanks very much for your post on management. In fact, when I watched the Bombs Away video just now, I initially assumed I must have misunderstood the method because the treatment of the coin in the spectator's hand was so casual. So I watched it a second time, and I became a bit wtf'ed, to be honest.

Not looking to get into any arguments during my first day here. I can see some great applications for the moves in the video, and I'm grateful that I saw it.

AL first of all you are a table worker your body is perfectly sitiated at a 45 degrees for a better angle in your demo ,, I am a walk around guy a ,,,in your faCE TYPE MAGIC,.and I do verybold magic that others would not even attempt
now in my demo the silver coin in demo one is in full view all the time where as in your effect it is not in full view
these ar two differnt ideas none being better than the other ...if I did this to you in real time you would amazed also. I place the coin in the spectarots hand they see the coin, themn as I pick up- the coin again form their hand the switch is made on the off beat at the end of the effect there is no lapping and I am clean because I am standing not sitting which is your style not mineand in the real world Al you would close your hand for me

vinny

This is exactly why I found your video disingenuous. You are demonstrating a method that works only for you. That's not the same as demonstrating a method that works better for you because you have more experience with it.

Here's one fix. Wrap the sm coin in paper, or use a gaffed quarter and place it in a matchbook. Then have the spectator cover the paper with her hand. Not in her fist, but pressing down on the table. Then you ask her to raise her hand, you cleanly unfold the paper, show the transposition, and DeManche into her palm. No need to have a comment war about something with a simple solution.

Thanks for the thoughts and insights, Al. I will review my thinking on several effects, You also reenforce why I do not offer videos of my effects.

Yet I am bothered by your comments about getting spectator cooperation -- can't help but think there is some problem with trust here. Perhaps the difference is that I usually don't perform magic effects "for entertainment." The fact that you never respond to my posts indicates that you don't believe what I say. OK -- maybe others will.

I have never had the other person in a one-on-one effect refuse to cooperate, take the object as directed and hold as instructed/demonstrated. It was never an issue. I asked them to do something and they did.

No refusal, balk or hesitation.

Not in 8000 plus transpositon type of effects or tens of thousands of other effects in which the other person handled a small object as part of a conjury or mentalism effect. Never!

I read your post again and the caps expressing your attitude toward spectators and believe you are correct -- FOR YOU. Your specs don't cooperate. Maybe if you thought of them as people ...


This also might explain why I chose not to become a professional magician. I would rather help people than entertain them. Thanks for that.

Now you seem to be saying that all great magicians feel as you do about "specs"

sad

Cards inj the nude what you say is another example however I do not work at a table th for this effect it is a stand or effect.
yopu say woprks for me yes because it is ano0ther method
I am only giving you my take as you gave me your take. if this was not true then we wouod all be clones doing the same thing

Al, thank you for the explanation. As an spectator myself, I would take the coin that vinny offered without resistance and I would take yours as well without resistance, maybe I am an easier spectator.
I did not realize in your video that the spectator was taking or making him beñief that is taking the coin from your hand, it looked to me more that you were putting the coin, but this is a video so perception is different, however I would agree with your idea of spectator picking the coin being natural, in that case the action is motivated.

On my second comment on the change of pace, do you see it as a potential concern or in person is irrelevant?

Thanks

I don't know but everytime I do classically C/S Transpo effects the spec always, and very simply, takes the coin and holds it as I instruct. I personally have never had a problem with doing this and I've also never given such a simple thing that much thought as Al puts forth to make it happen. Guess I've been just lucky for 20 yrs.

While I have always liked these sort of transpositions, I really think there is something more amazing than it happening in the spec's hand that I have found, and that is to let the transposition be visual and not completely hidden in the hands. How, you say? The MB Transpo.

They actually see the change happen and they are stunned, you can see it all over their faces, and when you pull the changed coin from the palm up other hand, well the response is always utter amazement usually followed by some expletives. . I began doing it with copper and silver coins initially but came to do it even better with a half dollar and dollar sized copper or brass Chinese coin, ridding the effect of the possibility of ever confusing the coins. It's a very amazing effect that's done all around the world now. I'm just sayin'.