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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I had this thought when I was reading the thread "which restaurants have magicians".
And to be honest - I don't want any magicians to know which restaurants I perform at. And I don't care to have magicians in my audience when I do public shows. So I don't advertise or talk about the restaurants I perform at - or advertise any public shows to magicians. Any other magicians feel the same way I do?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Mary Mowder Inner circle Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA 3659 Posts |
I love to see Magicians at my shows. It does make me nervous, especially if they are doing "the lurk". I don't quite know how but they sort of stand out, sometimes because they are attending family shows sans Kids, sometimes because they are a little over dressed perhaps because they don't always react like "normal" people but they do seem apparent.
I don't do much Table Hopping so this is mostly at Stand-Up Shows or Strolling. I don't know how to get around it though. When I go to a Magician's show (that I don't know) I don't want to introduce myself before the show either. I don't want to make a fellow Magician nervous and I'd like to see the show (or set) as it would normally run (without additions to impress a Magician). I hate to admit it but if the Magician is less than stellar I like to slink out unnoticed. What can you say? "That was some show!" or "WOW, nice costumes."? Of course feeling like I do, I like it if the Magicians introduce themselves after my show. When they don't I always suspect they didn't know what to say after. It could be paranoia because I really have no proof that these suspected Magicians were Magicians at all. Getting past all that, I love to talk Magic with other Magicians (after I'm done or at their table) as long as they don't start doing Magic at my gig (unless I ask). -Mary Mowder |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
To be clear, Glenn has been at this long enough that he is not nervous in the least. I know what he is saying and I agree in spirit.
Magicians make a terrible audience for a public show. Plus other things.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 15:03, Mary Mowder wrote: I find this pretty funny because I was once pegged as a magician by another magician, when neither of us was performing. We got to be friends and laughed about the episode being like "The Highlander", when one immortal just "knows" when another is nearby! An ex-wife once said that a magicians' convention was a collection of bad haircuts... maybe that's it! Ha! I typically don't mind other magicians being at my shows, provided they act with proper decorum. Breaking into random performance is a pet peeve, and I have seen it more than a couple times. I have also encountered hacks that seemed to think it OK to study my act and then use my material in their own shows. I've caught them doing it, and friends have, too. Sadly, I have also had these same types go behind my back and try to steal away a gig. Incorrigible oafs!! In that regard, I've experienced loyal clients who told me what had happened, and others who were not and hired the cheaper acts. When I attend another performer's show, I try to make myself as inconspicuous as possible, so as not to rattle anyone's cage. I do not bother them if they are setting up, and typically do want to be bothered when I am setting up. After the show, I do not mind talking, so long as my props are somewhat secured. This is when I may approach them. If the show was a bomb, I tend to slip away quietly, as Mary said. Worst offense is when one magician touches the apparatus of another, as if the "brotherhood" gives him the right to do so. I will attack with a vengeance if I see that happening, and not just with my own props. Well, hopefully I won't accidentally wind up at one of Glenn's shows, and if I do, I hope no offense is taken! ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Rocky Elite user 486 Posts |
I wonder if a musician feels similar when doing a public gig...or a comedian?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Comedians feel EXACTLY the same. I know this from being in comedy clubs for better than 10 years.
Funny story about a VERY famous comedy name. Came off stage in L.A. Guy just punches him right in the face. He just looked at the guy and says "so that was your joke huh?" Comedians are the wrong group to make your point. Go Tina web page called " chucklemonkey" and check some of the threads. Then get back to me with your question.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 18:35, Dannydoyle wrote: Brilliant!!
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Dynamike Eternal Order FullTimer 24148 Posts |
I do not mind others coming to see me. Others have invited me to come see them too. The only way it would bother me is if that certain magician tried to steal my gig or if he was doing magic when I was there without my permission.
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Ahh I know Chuckle Monkey WELL from my days in comedy clubs. SO many horror stories.
I went to see Lou Serrano at his residency on Burbank on Saturday. Granted he knew we were coming but we had a lot of fun. For me, I could see it being a good thing in that it would give me a chance to warm up - I KNOW my first table is going to be rooting for me and it gets others to see what you're doing. But again that's obviously different than random magicians showing up without you knowing they'll be there. If I were Lou I'd be more nervous of the fact that John Voight was in the room.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I have had magicians come into a place I was working - and I have had them just start performing magic for people. And they never asked me if it was OK and never asked the management if it was OK. They just started doing magic. The GM came over to me and I had a few words with him and then he went over to the magician and asked him to stop.
Then he started to argue with the GM and the next thing the GM showed him the door. I have also have had magicians come into a place I have been working for years and try to under-cut me. I had a guy I used as a sub try to under-cut me. I have had magicians try to steal my routines and the places I have worked. On the other side of the coin - I have subbed for magicians and have had the management try to higher me on the spot just because I am the better act... However I never once accepted the job if I was substituting for another magician. I still don't want any magician anywhere near any place I perform at no matter if it is a restaurant gig or a public show. It has nothing to do with me being nervous - it has to do with business.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Glenn,
Sounds like you live/work in an area that has some real cutthroat magic bandits. Either that, or you have a disproportionate number of crappy encounters. Too bad. I am normally very open and accepting of other magicians, regardless of their skill level, unless they prove themselves to be insufferable jerks, or just unethical by the standards I expect from myself. But, with the scenarios you've described (some similar I've experienced myself), then I'd probably be more likely to turn a cold shoulder. However, I still am a naive optimist when it comes to other magicians. Look on the bright side... if you keep them talking magic, they won't have time to perform where they aren't invited! As far as stealing gigs, I suspect your solution is as sane as any. In any case, be the bigger person and it will do you well in the end. Regarding performing at another magician's gig, what I have seen lately are groups of magicians that all start doing close-up in packs, sometimes where another is performing, sometimes not. If hired to cover a room at an event where one magician couldn't do it by himself, I can understand. But, I see the magic carry on to the point of over-saturation, with all of them trying to out-do the other for the same spectators. In my opinion, this diminishes the effectiveness of all of them. That something "special" is lost. My take is that I spent many, many years doing this for a living. I don't need to prove my magical savvy to anyone. Earning respect is one thing, but I've learned that respecting yourself is the best kind to have earned. Once you've done that, the others either get it, or they don't. It doesn't change a thing with me. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Tommy Edwards told me a funny story. Synopsis is guy said to him that Tommy's act bombed last week in Peoria. Tommy said I wasn't in Peoria last week. The guy says yes I know I did your act and it bombed.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
I have found that "most" (not all) Magi will attend another's show for 2 reasons.
A) To rip on them to make themselves feel superior B) To steal their material I have seen Magi in my audience with notebooks before writing down bits and lines. I once stopped the show, walked out in the audience and confiscated a notebook, read it to the audience (the guy was jotting down my bits and show order) and explained how wrong it is of another magician to try and steal someones act. I then tossed the notebook in my dove pan, grabbed one of my fire eating torches and set it on fire to the delight of the crowd. To this day, I don't know who this guy was or why he was copying down my show??? With that said... I will always support other magicians in their efforts to bring entertainment to the masses. I don't mind if other Magi come and watch my show. I do think it's "professional" to give the performer notice that you'll be there if at all possible. I am reminded of a story about Johnny Thompson (and I'm paraphrasing here)... Someone had ripped off Johnny's act and had a week long engagement at this theater. On opening night, the guy walks out on stage and sitting front row center in the audience is Johnny Thomson and he's holding a baseball bat. The guy froze and quickly changed his act on the fly...and bombed! The next night, the guy walks out on stage and Johnny isn't there...but the baseball bat was...just sitting the in seat which is where it stayed for the entire run of this guys show. Each night the guy bombed b/c he was to afraid to do Johnny acts. Now I don't know if this story is true...but I SO want it to be!
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-03 00:54, Dannydoyle wrote: You do know where I live now, don't you??
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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ThatsJustWrong! Special user My flying monkeys are perched on 629 Posts |
Most of the time I spent tablehopping in erstaurants was done under contract for 3-6 month periods with a 30 day renewal notice. It was my responsibility to provide a replacement when I had another gig and I paid him. I guaranteed a quality substitute and the agreement stated that my rates were confidential which made it harder for others to undercut me. Of course, all of this was secondary to my establishing a good working relationship with the restaurant and proving my value as a team player so they wouldn't want to risk taking a chance on someone else. Part pf establishing your value is reminding people that they get what they pay for.
As for attending a show, if it's someone I know (or would like to get to know), I like to tell them I'm coming and usually try to arrange coffee or something afterward rather than risk surprising them and throwing them off. I do not offer an opinion unless it is asked for and when I do, it's honest and constructive (though I always lead with a compliment). You don't have a basis for improvement if everyone blows rainbows up your butt but there's no need to be cruel either, just two or three points. I never dientify myself as a practitioner to other audience members and just try to enjoy the show without trying to work out every method. And, yeah, I had a few guys try to steal my Exploding Rabbit and Junk Chopper effects back in the day but none of them ever got them right. Besides, most folks don't want the hassle that comes with copying my act. You know, like having to drive 5 blocks out of your way to avoid coming within 500' of a school or playground, etc.
Joe Leo
All entertainers can benefit from some help from an experienced stage director. How about you? www.MisfitMysteries.com |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Some magicians put the restaurant that they work at on their web site. I have never done that. I only list in my credits the shows I do after I do them. If I put the info of where I am doing a show - magicians might show up and many have caused problems.
So I don't. I also don't sub for other magicians and I don't have other magicians sub for me.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Joe,
Keeping your prices under wraps wouldn't do much for the desperate pirate that simply announces that he'll do the job for less. His logic would be that if they are paying you, they must be paying something decent. It's a sad ploy, but in most cases, the restaurant management knows which side of their bread has the butter. Most would never think of ditching a proven thing just to save a few bucks. I have seen it happen, but it is rare, and I suspect the GMs that would do that, probably don't have the brains to last long anyway. Reminding them of value usually happens without having to remind them. If a magician is doing their job, their value is easily recognized, or in my opinion, should be. I have never had a contract for any restaurant, save the one-off special event things. But, I'm not saying that my way is the best way. It just worked for me the way I did it. Regarding magicians who steal material but never get it right is, I think, worse than if they did get it right. At least it's the lesser of two evils. I feel the same way about the apparatus that I build. If someone came along and copied my stuff with the same quality, I'd probably shake their hand, because I know the hard work needed to make quality happen. If it's inevitable that something will water down the market, I'd rather it be high quality than poor. I suspect that is kind of the point you were making, though. Glenn, I think announcing where one is working may depend on how one views a restaurant gig. To some, restaurants are a stepping stone to other things. To others, it IS the thing. Although never losing site of my main objective for being hired at a restaurant, I also did not overlook the fact that it was a perfect way to showcase for other potential clients in my own area. Inviting someone to come watch me perform live was often a more solid convincer, than a video alone could do. I guess the measure is whether you think the benefits of laymen knowing where you are working are greater than the negatives caused by hack magicians knowing. After I realized that my foothold in the market was secure enough to keep me in business, there really was no competition. I can imagine that there are other ways in which these trolls can be destructive, but much of that can be rectified by going after the source, rather than altering the way I do business. Being part of a network of kindred spirits helps a lot. Then you have a group that watches each others back.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Big Sam Regular user Florida 164 Posts |
It's been years since I've done restaurant gigs (over 20), but some things never change.
There were several times that another magician tried to snake a gig from me - usually happening right after the restaurant started advertising a magic night. Whenever the manager told me about it, I suggested they give the guy a try. If he's better, hire him. I always kept the gig, not because I was a great magician (I wasn't), but because anyone who has to try and steal gigs wasn't good enough to hire in the first place. Sam
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
I think my reputation for being "the Pitt Bull of Magic" stands for itself. I had several magi over the years try and snake a gig out from under me, but they suffered the wrath of my "charm" after the fact. Word travels fast and it hasn't happened to me in quite a while. WOOF!
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Rocky Elite user 486 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-02 18:35, Dannydoyle wrote: Thanks Danny. |
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