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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Are we a Police State yet? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pop Haydn
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It is better than nothing. I believe in single-payer, but it is probably too great a disruption at the present time. I think we will eventually move toward it because it is a more sensible plan, and has been proved to work.

I don't really see any alternatives. It will be something like Romneycare, or it will be some kind of single payer like most of the civilized world.
Woland
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Quote:
I believe in single-payer, but it is probably too great a disruption at the present time.


Should that comment go in one of the faith-based threads?
Pop Haydn
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I don't see why. I think the single-payer is the most effective solution, but to redo the law now would be very disruptive to the health care system. The new law is just beginning to come online. It may not be the best option, but it is an improvement, and changing course now would be difficult and expensive.

I think we are stuck with this Republican healthcare plan, at least for the time being.
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 00:38, Pop Haydn wrote:
I think the genius "Rope a Dope" strategy that Obama adopted was to push through the Republican's own plan, even though to most of us Democrats it was anathema. We wanted, and have always wanted, a universal coverage single-payer plan.

He could never have gotten a single payer plan through. By turning to Nixon's idea, which had been added to and enlarged by conservative Republican think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, he was able to push through a workable compromise.

The Republicans didn't treat it as a compromise. They attacked it as if it were from Satan himself. They vilified it and the President. They could never now support anything like it.

But this is a death pill for the Republicans.

Now the Republicans have no alternative to offer.

They have to run against their own plan, and have no decent alternative to put in its place. That is why this election is going to be fun to watch. It isn't just Romney running against his own wonderful accomplishment, it is the whole Republican Party running against their own best alternative to single-payer universal coverage.



This is a pretty funny comment Pop considering that not one Republican voted for Obamacare. So, if he was rope-a-doping anyone, it was his own party. If the democrats wanted single payer, they could have gotten it passed with the majorities they had just as they did Obamacare.
mastermindreader
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Of course not a single Republican voted for it. They marched in lockstep against it THE MOMENT that Obama endorsed the idea. It wasn't the plan, but Obama, who they were committed to voting against in order to stick to their stated number one goal of insuring that he would be a one-term president.

Will you not even concede the FACT that it was the conservative think tanks and the Republican party that came up with the mandate idea and the basic structure of the legislation?

But I agree with you that the Democrats should have stuck with single payer and voted that through. The reason they didn't, though, was that they mistakenly believed that at least some Republicans would sign on to what was clearly a compromise made in the spirit of bi-partisanship. In that regard, the Democrats and the President were naive- they mistakenly assumed the other side was acting in good faith. They weren't.
tommy
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It seems to me, that if have security that not necessary, that is based on lies and propaganda, then you have a police state.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rockwall
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Well, I won't exactly concede the FACT? you try and make that it was the conservative think tanks, (plural) and the Republican party that came up with the mandate idea. I know of A think tank, singular, not plural, that came up with idea. And I know of 'some' Republicans that supported the idea as an alternative to single payer. It was never a part of the Republican platform and was not supported by the majority of Republicans or conservatives. Can you at least concede the FACT that it doesn't matter if it was Obama, Bush, Clinton, or McCain, that national universal healthcare would have been strongly opposed by most Republicans?
mastermindreader
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Yes. I will concede that. I will also stand corrected that it was a conservative think tank (singular) that came up with the idea in the first place.

But, sadly, the party of Theodore Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower is no more. Even Richard Nixon would be too far to the left for today's Republicans. Even Reagan would probably have a hard time getting elected today given his stance on deficits and federal spending.
landmark
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Rockwall, what do you think about the original post?
rockwall
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Oh, look at you, trying to get us back on topic! Smile

hmmm. I don't have a strong opinion either way. While I am concerned about privacy issues, I wouldn't say that this is what would definitively put us into a police state. I guess we would need to define what we think a police state is as your definition would probably differ to some degree than mine. While the numbers sound large, it's a big country. Are these justified requests? Are the police using these records to go fishing? Is the information they collect admissible in court? I'm not surprised by the rapid increase because it is probably something more and more agencies are becoming aware of as a means of gathering evidence as the technology is 'relatively' new. Certainly the ability to track someone by their phone and where they've been.
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2012-07-15 22:43, mastermindreader wrote:
Yes. I will concede that. I will also stand corrected that it was a conservative think tank (singular) that came up with the idea in the first place.

But, sadly, the party of Theodore Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower is no more. Even Richard Nixon would be too far to the left for today's Republicans. Even Reagan would probably have a hard time getting elected today given his stance on deficits and federal spending.


I find it quite funny when those on the left pine for the days of the 'good' republican party and then make the laughable statement that even Reagan would have a hard time getting elected today. It's like, sure, Bush, McCain, Romney are all sooooo much farther right than Reagan ever was!
mastermindreader
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Wow Rockwall. I agree with you on that! I'm not so sure either.
Zombie Magic
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 00:38, Pop Haydn wrote:
I think the genius "Rope a Dope" strategy that Obama adopted was to push through the Republican's own plan, even though to most of us Democrats it was anathema. We wanted, and have always wanted, a universal coverage single-payer plan.

He could never have gotten a single payer plan through. By turning to Nixon's idea, which had been added to and enlarged by conservative Republican think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, he was able to push through a workable compromise.

The Republicans didn't treat it as a compromise. They attacked it as if it were from Satan himself. They vilified it and the President. They could never now support anything like it.

But this is a death pill for the Republicans.

Now the Republicans have no alternative to offer.

They have to run against their own plan, and have no decent alternative to put in its place. That is why this election is going to be fun to watch. It isn't just Romney running against his own wonderful accomplishment, it is the whole Republican Party running against their own best alternative to single-payer universal coverage.


Whit, I think the election will be fun/interesting to watch, but I think we learned from our President, William Jefferson Clinton in the '92 election, that "it's the economy Stupid" ( a variation of James Carville's internal campaign mantra ).

In dire times, people will vote with their wallets ( 1980 election ). If they feel financially worse off than 4 years ago, they'll vote a change. Those that weren't doing well 4 years, 8 years, 12 years ago, but now have healthcare, will stay the course.

All the rhetoric on the airwaves this summer, all the polls mean nothing. Who passed the first mandated healthcare law as Governor, who passed it as President, who ran what company, who went to what church, will just be chatter to make the heat bearable. And of course the Presidential debates will be a hoot. A good old fashioned sideshow for the folks.

At the end of the summer, based on the unemployment numbers, we'll know who will be our President after November 6th.
Woland
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I would say this is not yet a "police state" but the structures are being put in place. Here is a list of some of the President's recent executive orders:

Quote:
• EO 10990 allows the Government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
• EO 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels, and minerals.
• EO 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision
• EO 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
• EO 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
• EO 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate and establish new locations for populations.
• EO 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways, and public storage facilities.


All that's needed is the justification to implement them.

Like the "State of Emergency" Harry S. Truman ordered in 1950.
landmark
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Woland, Interesting list, although one could now add the power to assassinate any US citizen anywhere without any judicial oversight under complete protection of executive secrecy.

Anyway, would you still feel the same way if the other party were in power? Would you be as vocal? Serious question.
Woland
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Hi landmark, I agree with your addition. Yes, I would be as vocal if the "other party" held the reins. (I don't think posting here is really being "very vocal," though, do you?

If you read about Proclamation 2914, you may be surprised at how long some of President Truman's "emergency" measures remained in force. I think some of them lasted until President Bush (43!) rescinded them.
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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I expect it will go a lot better than the Munich.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Same problem, though, no?
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