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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-11 19:01, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Are you asking if people prefer to fool themselves? Is so, the answer is yes. Otherwise 80% of the U.S. wouldn't be believers (Although that number is rapidly shrinking).


They're only fooling themselves if God doesn't exist...a position you've been extremely reticent to take.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-11 19:01, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Are you asking if people prefer to fool themselves? Is so, the answer is yes. Otherwise 80% of the U.S. wouldn't be believers (Although that number is rapidly shrinking).


Are they shrinking faster than global warming? How soon till that 80% are less than three feet tall?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Tom Jorgenson
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Quote:
On 2012-07-11 15:44, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
If you forgive others will your Karma change?


How I understand it:

Your Karma will lighten because of your action of forgiveness. Their Karma will change, however, because you have released their debt to you.

The problem with forgiveness, why it is sometimes so very hard, is that it lets the bad guy off the hook.

The action of lightening Karma is Grace.

Forgiveness releases debt. Grace releases Karma.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-11 19:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-11 19:01, Old Scratch Johnson wrote:
Are you asking if people prefer to fool themselves? Is so, the answer is yes. Otherwise 80% of the U.S. wouldn't be believers (Although that number is rapidly shrinking).


They're only fooling themselves if God doesn't exist...a position you've been extremely reticent to take.


Pascal's Wager? What if they are fooling themselves into believing the wrong god? Do they go to hell or heaven?
LobowolfXXX
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Native American (Cherokee) tale (or so I was told)

A young boy was talking with his grandfather about a classmate who had done him wrong, and how mad he was, and how he wanted to beat him up. The grandfather said, "I understand. I, too, have had great of hate for those who have taken so much with no sorrow for their wrongs. But hate wears you down and doesn't hurt your enemy. It's like drinking poison and hoping your enemy will die. I have struggled with this many times."

He went on, "It is as through there are two wolves inside me. One is a very good wolf. He does no harm, he lives in harmony with all others, and he does not take offense when offense was not intended. He only fights when he must, and in the right way. The other wolf is full of anger. The smallest slight will set off his temper. He fights all the time, for no good reason. He cannot even reason, because his anger and hatred are so strong, and it is useless, for it changes nothing. Sometimes it is very hard to live with these two wolves inside me, both fighting to control my spirit."

The boy looked up into his grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which wolf wins, grandfather?" The grandfather replied, "The one I feed."

To the extent that you want to, and are able to, don't forgive him/her for his/her sake; do it for yours.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
seadog93
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I thought this was going to be a little deeper. The title got me thinking of people who comfort themselves by saying that karma will bite someone in the ass ...they aren't really forgiving are they.

Not that that is all that deep, but I think it's deeper then the presented topic. Basically I am seeing to very shallow and superficial interpretations of two different theories with a narrow perspective as to which one is better.

One of the main things about forgiveness is that it is incredibly psychologically valuable to the transgressed to be able to forgive. This is not a question of right or wrong, it's simply that forgiveness allows you to move on and be happy. he happiest people tend to forgive easiest. It's also important to realize that forgiving does not equal forgetting.
From the transgressors perspective, just asking for forgiveness is not enough; there needs to be a genuine understanding of why they were wrong and repentance. Also a forgiveness by God of ones sins does not equal forgiveness by individuals or society.

Comparing going to heaven to enlightenment or nirvana is potentially flawed on many many levels. In Buddhism there are many heavens that are generated by karma, and to go to one of them is to be just as stuck on the wheel of death and rebirth as anyone else (more so because of the lack of the precious human birth).

Forgiving WILL alter your karma. To consider karma to be a tit-for-tat form of justice is a very new age western misunderstanding of the concept . Karma is a reaction of the universe to the energies you generate while acting from the unenlightened perspective of attachment (obviously, like any one sentence distillation, this is a very shallow description too). That is why, through yogic and meditative practices you can "burn karma" and transcend it.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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seadog93
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Quote:
On 2012-07-11 19:24, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
Your Karma will lighten because of your action of forgiveness. Their Karma will change, however, because you have released their debt to you.


There's another level.

Quote:
On 2012-07-11 19:34, LobowolfXXX wrote:

To the extent that you want to, and are able to, don't forgive him/her for his/her sake; do it for yours.


Exactly. Good story.

Quote:
On 2012-07-11 16:09, MobilityBundle wrote:
is this really something to care about?

I don't mean to be flip about it. What I mean is, if you're a bona-fide Christian, then don't you automatically subscribe to the forgiveness-based philosophy, whereas if you're a bona-fide Buddhist, then you subscribe to the karma-based philosophy, and that's that? And moreover, is picking a faith like shopping for a car, where you browse among the alternatives until you find something you like?

I think this is another very good point.
Most people (unless they are chaos magicians or NLPers) don't pick and choose their beliefs. If you are a Christian, who's worldview does not include karma, then it's not a question of which is "better," that's just silly.



ONE LAST RANT:
In addition to the concepts of forgiveness and karma both being topics that have been deeply thought over by many people and cannot be glibly summed up and dismissed:
There is no one "Christian Church" nor is there on "Buddhism." There are many many Christian Churches and there are many many forms of Buddhism and many of the churches disagree with one another one any given topic and the same goes for the many forms of Buddhism; and that's just officially ...we all know that individual followers and believers may well have their own interpretations as well.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Steve_Mollett
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Go with a study of ETHICS, it's more pragmatic.
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gdw
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Neither is a philosophy, unless you are the one doing the forgiving.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicalaurie
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Forgiveness.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-11 20:19, seadog93 wrote:...
Most people [snip] don't pick and choose their beliefs. ...


Without that choice ... what might lead them to believe that one model of behavioral reinforcement is more valid than annother?

IE if you did not choose to believe - what possible merit would there be in any choices made upon that belief? Does a calculator display 6 as an act of Faith when confronted by 2*3 and so display that answer on the screen hoping for an afterlife with an eternal supply of batteries?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 17:17, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-11 20:19, seadog93 wrote:...
Most people [snip] don't pick and choose their beliefs. ...


Without that choice ... what might lead them to believe that one model of behavioral reinforcement is more valid than annother?

IE if you did not choose to believe - what possible merit would there be in any choices made upon that belief?


I don't choose to believe that bell peppers taste better than mushrooms. It's just an inherent part of my makeup.

Given that I *do* have that belief, though, there's quite a bit of merit in making the choice to order bell peppers, and not mushrooms, on my pizza.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Mr. Mystoffelees
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If I were the ruling class, and I were nasty, and greedy and selfish, I would love to spread the idea of forgiveness around. Gotta help with the rebellions, no? I'll take karma...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 17:17, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-11 20:19, seadog93 wrote:...
Most people [snip] don't pick and choose their beliefs. ...


Without that choice ... what might lead them to believe that one model of behavioral reinforcement is more valid than annother?

IE if you did not choose to believe - what possible merit would there be in any choices made upon that belief? Does a calculator display 6 as an act of Faith when confronted by 2*3 and so display that answer on the screen hoping for an afterlife with an eternal supply of batteries?


I was never too impressed with an afterlife, but for an eternal supply of batteries, sign me up!
Carrie Sue
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Karma is an impersonal law which supposedly rewards souls in successive lifetimes based on the rightness or wrongness of choices in the current life.

Kinda crashes against common sense, because how can an impersonal thing determine right from wrong?

Carrie
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seadog93
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 17:17, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-11 20:19, seadog93 wrote:...
Most people [snip] don't pick and choose their beliefs. ...


Without that choice ... what might lead them to believe that one model of behavioral reinforcement is more valid than annother?

IE if you did not choose to believe - what possible merit would there be in any choices made upon that belief? Does a calculator display 6 as an act of Faith when confronted by 2*3 and so display that answer on the screen hoping for an afterlife with an eternal supply of batteries?


I thought it was a little obvious that I was talking about a conscious choice.
Do you believe that most religious people sit down and think about what religion is better and which to choose? Even if they do, do you believe that it is a fair choice and not just a submission or reaction to the way they were raised?
Did you consciously sit down and consciously choose what you believed about those questions?

Your bit about the calculator seems completely random to me, ...unless you believe that there is objective proof of a particular worldview (if you do believe that, did you consciously sit down and choose to believe it?).
If there is, then there is no point in having faith; which is a major point in many religions.
If there is not, I have no idea what you are talking about with faith based calculator idea.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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seadog93
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 17:51, Carrie Sue wrote:
Karma is an impersonal law which supposedly rewards souls in successive lifetimes based on the rightness or wrongness of choices in the current life.

Kinda crashes against common sense, because how can an impersonal thing determine right from wrong?

Carrie


Exactly right; that is the standard western concept of karma and (as you point out) it doesn't make any sense.
Karma is (according to the belief systems, wether you accept them or not) the repercussions of your actions. These are impersonal (although from our perspective we would consider them good or bad depending on how much we liked them) and can be experienced now or in the future.
If you are a very negative person (like myself Smile ) you put out a lot of negative energy and people respond in kind. Further, you get used to being negative and perpetuate that energy even when you try not to. That's (one, simple, example of) karma. You can transcend it, "burn" it, etc.; ...in theory. Easier said than done.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Carrie Sue
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But, Seadog93, that definition only bears on what kind of life you will have in the only life you will have. Hindus view it quite differently because they believe you will live many, many lives. How can an impersonal force move you up or down the food chain based on what you do? There is no logical mechanism, therefore the philosophy fails from the jump.

Carrie
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Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 17:51, Carrie Sue wrote:
Karma is an impersonal law which supposedly rewards souls in successive lifetimes based on the rightness or wrongness of choices in the current life.

Kinda crashes against common sense, because how can an impersonal thing determine right from wrong?

Carrie

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seadog93
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 19:48, Carrie Sue wrote:
But, Seadog93, that definition only bears on what kind of life you will have in the only life you will have. Hindus view it quite differently because they believe you will live many, many lives. How can an impersonal force move you up or down the food chain based on what you do? There is no logical mechanism, therefore the philosophy fails from the jump.

Carrie


There are a lot of problems with your argument here; not even counting the fact that Hinduism and Buddhism, while sharing the concept of karma (differently though) are not the same.

Karma and reincarnation are both beliefs within certain worldviews. You can (and many do) believe in one without the other.

The "fact" that we have only one life is a belief, there is no proof either way that reincarnation does or does not exist (some believe that there is "proof" that it exists, I disagree). Similarly there is no proof one way or the other that there is only one life or that there is a heaven.

Your equation with moving up or down the food chain as a moral judgment is flawed as well; and of course there is a mechanism for it. There are several different mechanisms for (karmic explanations of) reincarnation that are perfectly logical, if you accept the premise.
As I mentioned earlier, there are many many schools of Buddhism (and Hinduism, now that we're talking about that too) and different schools of thought as to mechanisms.

There are a lot of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and there have been for a very long time. If you have not taken the time to study the works of their great thinkers that's fine, but it's ridiculous to assume that some simple piece of logic was beyond their grasp and they have no answer for it. That's as silly as my friends when I was teenager thinking they had completely dismantled Christianity with some stupid cliched pseudo-philosphical statement or question or statement. To assume that 5 minutes worth of thought would stump (for example) Thomas Aquinas is silly, and the same goes for any other established school of thought.

To dismiss the logic of a belief or worldview out of hand, or because one does not believe it personally is (IMO) the height of hubris. There are many many worldview and belief systems that are perfectly logical, understandable and which allow an individual to function in their society. All of these (including yours and mine) rest on unprovable assumption/beliefs/acts of faith.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
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