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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Interesting Poll: Should women join the infantry (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 18:54, acesover wrote:
So far there are around 50,000 votes in with 50% saying no. and 43% yes while 7% undiecided


Well so far only women can bring forth infants - so it's not too big a stretch to suggest they could stay on to take care of them.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-12 18:54, acesover wrote:
So far there are around 50,000 votes in with 50% saying no. and 43% yes while 7% undiecided


Well so far only women can bring forth infants - so it's not too big a stretch to suggest they could stay on to take care of them.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
MagicSanta
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Most women in 'combat roles' does not mean they take part in offensive actions yeet they do serve in roles where they could be involved in a combat situation. There is a distinction which most will not get.

Bob tell your daughter that I was happy to pave the way for her. Even you have to understand a woman on a destroyer is considered a combat position but there are to my knowledge no women in a first line action on the ground physiclly taking on the action. Are there women called basic infantry? Sure. Does this mean they are the first on the beach? No.

The question was infantry, grunts, not techs, wielders, and mechanics, etc, absolutely and they do as good a job as anyone. Woman are intellectually and functional as men as are gays and all races. If you take 100 male grunt and 100 female grunts the only way the ladies can match the guys is to lower the physical standards. In case you wonder the standards do differ.

<alducci, please produce not a list of countries saying women are in actual combat roles, and not all combat roles are, but a list where those countries sent in those hard core ladies guns blazing directly against the enemy.

Last note. The best officer I served under was a woman and my best retired navy pal is a woman senior chief. I support women in the military.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 00:31, MagicSanta wrote:

The question was infantry, grunts, not techs, wielders, and mechanics, etc, absolutely and they do as good a job as anyone. Woman are intellectually and functional as men as are gays and all races. If you take 100 male grunt and 100 female grunts the only way the ladies can match the guys is to lower the physical standards. In case you wonder the standards do differ.



There's got to be some overlap, though, no? What if you had 100 male grunts and 100 female, and you needed a group of 100 total. If the ten strongest women were weakest men, I agree that you shouldn't make a group up of 50 men and 50 women, but what's your take on a 90-10 split?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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acesover
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On 2012-07-12 19:15, balducci wrote:
Link? What was the survey group? The "He-Man Woman Haters Club"?


Not sure how to list the link as it is a poll on msn home page. Here is the link to the attached poll. When youi click onthe poll you just vote no real link. Here is the aarticle with it: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/0......cer?lite

remember this is not asking about women in the service but rather in the infantry. There is a diffeence I assume you know.
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MagicSanta
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Absolutely there is overlap in the general population which is why I specified grunts. If seperate standards then a higher percentage of woman would be in the top 100 of 200. If the male standard was used or the female standard I would say low single digits would make top 100. Put those ladies against civilian guys I would say well over 50% would be ladies, maybe as much as 80.

I will bsay that I served with one very tough and lovely woman named Katie who I know would have finished in the top five and was one of the few female divers and she passed the test for SEALS but she didn't want to be a shooter.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-13 01:40, MagicSanta wrote:
Absolutely there is overlap in the general population which is why I specified grunts. If seperate standards then a higher percentage of woman would be in the top 100 of 200. If the male standard was used or the female standard I would say low single digits would make top 100. Put those ladies against civilian guys I would say well over 50% would be ladies, maybe as much as 80.

I will bsay that I served with one very tough and lovely woman named Katie who I know would have finished in the top five and was one of the few female divers and she passed the test for SEALS but she didn't want to be a shooter.


Well, whatever the number is...you want low single digits, let's say it's 3 women who make the top 100. Should the final group still be the 100 men, or should it be the 97 men and the 3 women?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
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"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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The latest fgures on this poll are as follows: 64k say yes, 77k say no, 10k undecided

Not sure how many of you served in combat conditions, but it may affect how you would vote.
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acesover
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Come on guys. Get serious here. There is no comparsion of a man vs a woman in combat when taking into consideration the whole picture not an individual case. If they are so equal and as competent as their male counterparts how come you do not see any women in the NFL if they are just as capable? Maybe it has something to do with strength and stamania and a mind set. Please don't try and tell me men women are on the same page when it comes to strength and the ability to inflict deadly force on an enemy. It is just not so.

I am not saying they cannot serve nor be denied the priviledge to serve. I am saying that the position in which they serve is what is important and the infanatry is not one that most women can accompish competently. That in no way diminishes their importance once they are in the armed forces. It only enhances their productivity if they are placed in a position in which they have the best chance of handling the duties involved. Not every man belongs in the infantry either. Just the odds are much better that a male is more apt than the female for this position.

I am definitely 100% behind women being in the Armed Forces if they so desire. It is the capacity in which they serve that I have some reservations.
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MagicSanta
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Hey if you don't mind what may be done to women if POWs then more power to you. Why a woman would join to be a gruntis beyond me. Just don't pretend loading a rocket on a plane is the same as dropping into the bush for close combat. There is a difference just that some don't see in. I am sure the base in Chandler has plentyof combat types defending Arizona. When my ship got women we went from a support ship to combat so all the women suddenly fufilled combat roles. Same job, same place, but now "combat", what a load.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 02:05, acesover wrote:
Come on guys. Get serious here. There is no comparsion of a man vs a woman in combat when taking into consideration the whole picture not an individual case. If they are so equal and as competent as their male counterparts how come you do not see any women in the NFL if they are just as capable? Maybe it has something to do with strength and stamania and a mind set. Please don't try and tell me men women are on the same page when it comes to strength and the ability to inflict deadly force on an enemy. It is just not so.

I am not saying they cannot serve nor be denied the priviledge to serve. I am saying that the position in which they serve is what is important and the infanatry is not one that most women can accompish competently. That in no way diminishes their importance once they are in the armed forces. It only enhances their productivity if they are placed in a position in which they have the best chance of handling the duties involved. Not every man belongs in the infantry either. Just the odds are much better that a male is more apt than the female for this position.

I am definitely 100% behind women being in the Armed Forces if they so desire. It is the capacity in which they serve that I have some reservations.


Of course the odds are much better that a male is more apt than a female for that role; the question is what about those women who ARE suited for it?

As for the NFL...there are about 1,000 times more jobs available in the U.S. Armed Forces than in the NFL, so there's quite a bit more overlap.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Octopus Sun
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Santa, it sounds like you are offended because I mentioned the first female combat pilots being
trained at Willie AZ, I didn't train them.
All I did was make sure the flight line was ready each day for our pilots and tech support
QC was my specialty, I was given the job because I got the highest test scores out of a few hundred
I just did what I was told, then went home, puffed and drank till it was time
to go back and work.
then I got sent to Beruit.

willie was a training station, nothing else Santa
who knows w.t.f. they did after that
I could care less.
this was back in 79-81
just saying
who cares
I don't
never did

F it all
stoneunhinged
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I always loved that scene in "Starship Troopers" where the men and women were showering together.

It reminded me of Socrate's suggestion in "The Republic" that women exercise together with men down at the gym. Thing was, the primary exercise back in the day in Athens was wrestling, which was done oiled-up and in the nude. Almost the very next topic Socrates brings up is that in their "perfect city" they're going to have to completely control--100%!--all sexual activity. A perfect example of Socratic irony, perhaps?

Now, 2,500 years later, we also think up situations in which we could somehow control not only natural distinctions, but natural desires.

The problem with women on the front is the same with gays on the front: passion, desperation, fear, anger, and closeness in a fox hole might lead to desires in a fox hole, which would lead to distraction in a fox hole--a place where there ought not to be distractions.

Everybody knows this, but our love of tolerance wins out. There's nothing wrong with being a woman, and there is nothing wrong with being gay, and we want everyone to have an equal opportunity to follow their dreams.

But we also know that sex in a fox hole is probably a bad idea.

Maybe the sea change that needs to take place is this: we need to realize that war is also a bad idea. No one should want to be in a fox hole in the first place.
rowdymagi5
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First, you cant integrate women with the men. I seem to remember an unusually high pregnancy rate when Desert Storm started and women and men were integrated to some degree.

I used to work in a maximum security prison. When an inmate got into trouble and had to be handcuffed and escorted to segregation, the worst thing the Captain could do would be to send a woman. A man shows up and it is no problem, the inmate walks across the rotunda in handcuffs with a male corrections officer walking beside him. Easy. A woman corrections officer shows up and there is no way that same inmate will let a woman lead him in front of all the other inmates to segregation. It was some honor thing. Can you imagine an all female combat unit against an enemy all male combat unit? Talk about giving the enemy some extra motivation not to retreat or surrender!

The NFL analogy is perfect. If a woman could quarterback a team to a super bowl, they would use her! Its all about money. There are no capable women who could do so, just like there are no capable women who can play in the NBA. Facts are facts.

What sucks is when you look at the facts. The local firemans and policemans training is different for the women. In one scenario, a male has to run to a car, pull a 165 pound dummy out of the car and carry him 20 yards to safety. He cant do it, he doesn't pass. For the women cadidates, they have to pull out a small sandbag and they are allowed to drag it 20 yards. Not the same standards.

The military standards for women verses men is drastically different. Not near as much is expected of them both physically and mentally.

I would have to assume most of those that feel women should be allowed in infantry "grunts" have never served our country in the military.
Woland
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Thanks for clear thoughts, Stone. It seems apparent to this observer, that the folks who are strongest on advocating for women in equal and all roles in the military, i.e. in combat roles, are the same people who generally disparage the military, don't think we need a strong military, and in other ways obviously seek to weaken the military. I think they are advocating women in combat roles for the same reason, i.e. in order to weaken the military. This they hope will come about in two ways, first by putting women in roles for which they are not equally qualified, thereby weakening the units to which they are assigned, second, as Stone notes, by introducing a source of confusion and conflict within those units, further weakening them, and third, by utilizing the images of killed women soldiers to further discourage the whole people, and weaken their willingness to defend their country, their way of life, the Constitution, and their very lives.

By the way, Lobo & Bob, as Santa knows, women have not had, and generally do not have, combat roles in the I.D.F., although Israel is burdened with more self-hating, multi-cultural, post-modernist ideologues than even the United States.
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Your assumptions about the motives of people who want equality in the military are mind-boggling. I'm reminded of one of the set pieces of George C Scott in Dr. Strangelove. Personally, I think the fewer people in the military the better, and the move to be more inclusive is because they've overextended themselves with all their wars and need more cannon fodder. Amazing how the bloodthirstiness is disguised as a fight for equality. When the criminal wars are over, and there is equality in the rest of the Society, then I'm willing to address this question.
Woland
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Don't your comments prove my point? In the meantime, landmark, here is a photo that purportedly shows an IDF soldier in a state of readiness:

Image
landmark
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No, my comments don't prove your point. Proving your point would be to show that all in favor of women in the military, including officers and policy makers, are deliberately trying to weaken the military.
rowdymagi5
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 06:17, Woland wrote:
Thanks for clear thoughts, Stone. It seems apparent to this observer, that the folks who are strongest on advocating for women in equal and all roles in the military, i.e. in combat roles, are the same people who generally disparage the military, don't think we need a strong military, and in other ways obviously seek to weaken the military. I think they are advocating women in combat roles for the same reason, i.e. in order to weaken the military. This they hope will come about in two ways, first by putting women in roles for which they are not equally qualified, thereby weakening the units to which they are assigned, second, as Stone notes, by introducing a source of confusion and conflict within those units, further weakening them, and third, by utilizing the images of killed women soldiers to further discourage the whole people, and weaken their willingness to defend their country, their way of life, the Constitution, and their very lives.

By the way, Lobo & Bob, as Santa knows, women have not had, and generally do not have, combat roles in the I.D.F., although Israel is burdened with more self-hating, multi-cultural, post-modernist ideologues than even the United States.


Well said!
Carrie Sue
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The fact that standards are relaxed in order to get women into the ranks of, say, police or firefighters proves that standards will also have to be different for women to qualify for military combat positions, too. The forces of political correctness make it happen, whether it's publicized or not.

RowdyMagi5 is fully correct.

Carrie
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