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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Interesting Poll: Should women join the infantry (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-19 11:58, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2012-07-19 11:54, acesover wrote:
Not taking anything away from any of the winners and while winning this contest is something to be extremely proud of it has very litle to do with surviving in combat. Having said that I would have in my prime not even been able to qualify to compete other than in rifle. But I feel I came out a winner as I survived in real life and death situations and am here to talk about it.



I don't know if this is a late April Fool's Day joke or something, but you do realize that *you* were the one constantly bringing up sports analogies when you thought they were "proving" your point. So, just to clarify, it's your position that the military warrior competition doesn't tell us anything about combat fitness, but we can learn a lot from professional tennis? Sometimes LOL doesn't say it.




Quote:
On 2012-07-19 01:26, acesover wrote:

I definitely have to disagree and would like to know what sports that they can compete equally with a male. I will not even go with the extremely physcial sports such as baseball, basketball, or football. How about Tennis, Golf or even Billiards. There is no comparsion. Men dominate completely.
I did not research them because I did not claim them to be able to compete competitively. I believe I know the answer without the research, and that is none. One of the few I could see them being able to compete because I believe it to be more of a discipline is competitive pistol shooting, but even there I doubt it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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acesover wrote:

You may think differently and when being attacked you can quote the US constitution to the enemy and counsel him, maybe pass on some anger management ideas to calm him down. That should work. Bang your dead and so is your bud, you just bought the farm. You feel you are correct and that is all that matters. So be it.


Easily the most ridiculous misstatement of my opinions that I have ever read. Congratulations.
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On 2012-07-19 12:02, Marlin1894 wrote:
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On 2012-07-19 12:01, critter wrote:
Yeah, I was just thinking of helping an injured comrade. "Lift with the legs."


What if you have to pull them out of a hole? lol


So now it's back to the sexuality argument... Smile
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Not to denegrate Sgt. Gallagher, it's a big deal what she did. But I do think that competition is a bit silly. If I thought for one minute that she was the finest "warrior" this country has to offer... I'd be downright frightened. I know that's probably an unpopular thing to say... But I'm saying anyhow.

I will make allowances that that's an Army competition. Maybe she is the best the Armys got. I'm still on team USMC.
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On 2012-07-19 12:08, critter wrote:
What if you have to pull them out of a hole? lol


Hello!
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On 2012-07-19 02:24, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover-

You wrote:

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I definitely have to disagree and would like to know what sports that they can compete equally with a male. I will not even go with the extremely physcial sports such as baseball, basketball, or football. How about Tennis, Golf or even Billiards. There is no comparsion. Men dominate completely.


No comparison? Men dominate completely?

Simply not true...

9 Great Moments of Women Beating Men in Sports:

In golf, tennis, horse racing, WRESTLING, baseball and, get this, BEST WARRIOR. Some excerpts from the article:

Quote:
Army – Sherri Gallagher Wins U.S. Best Warrior Competition

Contestants are judged on events like hand-to-hand competition, night firing and weapons familiarization to determine the best soldier in the U.S.

Gallagher, considered one of the best long-rifle shooters in the country, beat out 11 other dudes to be the first woman to win the title since the competition’s inception in 2001.


And

Quote:
Baseball – Jackie Mitchell Strikes Out Murderer’s Row

In 1931, the dynasty-mode New York Yankees played an exhibition game against the minor-league Chattanooga Lookouts, who featured a 17-year-old pitcher by the name of Jackie Mitchell. Jackie was a girl, but was taught the game from a very young age by her father. When she entered the contest in the first inning, she struck out Babe Ruth on four pitches, which caused him to vow to never bat against a woman again. She only needed three for the next guy—Lou Gehrig, whom we presume was more gracious.

Rather than inspire the second wave of the Women’s Movement right then and there, Mitchell’s contract was voided only days after by then-commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who subsequently declared women unfit to play baseball, saying that it was “too strenuous.”


http://www.thesmokingjacket.com/entertai......n-sports

How about kick boxing?

Quote:
Kick Boxing Battle

A kickboxing battle of the sexes version took place just after the above mentioned boxing match on October 21, 1999. Amateur Muay Thai fighter Deborah "Sunshine" Fettkether, with a 4-1-1 record, fought construction worker and first-time fighter Randy Pittman. In the fight, Fettkether easily defeated Pittman 59 seconds into the first round - Pittman had no idea what he was in for.


http://www.topendsports.com/sport/boxing......-men.htm

Ever hear of soft ball pitching great Jennie Finch?

Quote:
"Some big-timers refuse to face her," Cal Ripken, Jr. says. "Many feel it could be embarrassing."[27] In an interview with ESPN, Finch explained, "I was throwing them mostly rise balls and change-ups. They've never seen a pitch like that, you know? With the closer distance from the mound, I think it really surprises them how fast the pitch gets there. And especially with the rise -- when they're used to that over-the-top release point -- there is nothing else like it. The ball movement throws them off."[28]

In the 2004 Pepsi All-Star Softball Game, Finch struck out Albert Pujols, Mike Piazza and Brian Giles.[29] "I never touched a pitch," said Giles.[15] "Her fastball was the fastest thing I've ever seen, from that distance. It rises and cuts at the same time."[15]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennie_Finch

There is no question that there are SOME women who are equally or more qualified then men in virtually any activity. That's not an opinion. It's just the way it is.

Good thoughts,

Bob


You seem to like to pick out specifics to prove a general point such as tthat lady softball pitcher. Well let me pickout a specific also...of course mine will be a man but lets matach them aganist each other as we have the best of both whereas you pick the best to pit aganist the norm. Better to compare apples to apples thanthe way you do it. The greatest softball player to have lived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Feigner
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LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-19 12:06, mastermindreader wrote:
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acesover wrote:

You may think differently and when being attacked you can quote the US constitution to the enemy and counsel him, maybe pass on some anger management ideas to calm him down. That should work. Bang your dead and so is your bud, you just bought the farm. You feel you are correct and that is all that matters. So be it.


Easily the most ridiculous misstatement of my opinions that I have ever read. Congratulations.


I have no idea what the most ridiculous misstatement of one of my positions was, but I know who made it (and the other 9 on the top 10 list).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Women now make up 14.6 percent of the US military. Since 2001, more than 255,000 women have been deployed to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, where more than 120 have been killed and almost 700 wounded. Many women have earned combat awards for valor – including two Silver Stars. Women are killing the enemy, saving lives, and showing great bravery and valor in combat conditions. They are also crucial for searching local women and children for weapons at checkpoints and during raids, and engaging with the female population as part of counterinsurgency strategy.

Yet the Army is gaming the restrictions by assigning women to permissible positions, but attaching them to combat units to get the mission done. The current policy is a legal fiction, which not only degrades combat efficiency, effectiveness, and flexibility, but confuses military commanders.

Almost all the arguments against homosexuals serving openly in the military have been used to keep these 220,000 positions closed to women: Their presence will disrupt cohesion; there will be insurmountable privacy issues; there will be sexual tensions; they don't (as a class) have what it takes. Courts usually don't meddle in the business of military affairs, but last September, US District Court Judge Virginia Phillips decided such arguments were baseless for restrictions on homosexuals in the military. The secretary of Defense, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Congress, and the president agreed. With this historic change, there are no more legitimate arguments for keeping qualified women out of any position in the military. Especially in a time of war, we need to pick the best "man" for every job, even if she is a woman.


Complete article can be read at http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opin......n-combat
Marlin1894
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On 2012-07-19 12:14, acesover wrote:
The greatest softball player to have lived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Feigner


Now this is threadworthy in itself and probably worth derailing this thread entirely. I LOVED the King and his Court!
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On 2012-07-19 12:06, mastermindreader wrote:
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acesover wrote:

You may think differently and when being attacked you can quote the US constitution to the enemy and counsel him, maybe pass on some anger management ideas to calm him down. That should work. Bang your dead and so is your bud, you just bought the farm. You feel you are correct and that is all that matters. So be it.


Easily the most ridiculous misstatement of my opinions that I have ever read. Congratulations.


Bob not misstating your opoinions . I am only stating what is in the contest, and just telling you how this contest is judged is kind of silly. If you use the criteria in this contest I am only pointing how useless much of it is and yet the winner is called the best or whatever warrior..
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On 2012-07-19 12:14, acesover wrote:
You seem to like to pick out specifics to prove a general point such as tthat lady softball pitcher.


What you seem to fail to realize (or at least do a remarkable job of failing to acknowledge) is that neither Bob, nor I, nor anyone disagreeing with you here is making a "general point."

In fact, it's quite the reverse. It is you who is using generalities to try to make a specific point. Nobody is saying that men and women, as groups, are equally physically capable.

What some of us is saying is that even if 99,995 of the 100,000 most capable are men, if you pick a unit of 100,000 and exclude women, you won't have the most capable out there. In fact, you'll have exactly what you are deriding - a unit in which some subpar members (the bottom 5) were selected because of their sex, not their qualifications.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Either acesover is intentionally misstating my position or he simply doesn't understand it. I am using specifics to demonstrate that generalities do NOT apply to ALL people. He is the one speaking in generalities and ignoring or dismissing any and all examples that prove that his generalities do not ALWAYS apply.

As to him misstating my position, I wish he would point out where I said anything as inane as:

Quote:
You may think differently and when being attacked you can quote the US constitution to the enemy and counsel him, maybe pass on some anger management ideas to calm him down. That should work. Bang your dead and so is your bud, you just bought the farm. You feel you are correct and that is all that matters. So be it.


Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous and false. I think that it is HE who feels that his being correct is all that matters- even if it means misstating my positions and attacking straw men.
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On 2012-07-19 12:22, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2012-07-19 12:14, acesover wrote:
You seem to like to pick out specifics to prove a general point such as tthat lady softball pitcher.


What you seem to fail to realize (or at least do a remarkable job of failing to acknowledge) is that neither Bob, nor I, nor anyone disagreeing with you here is making a "general point."

In fact, it's quite the reverse. It is you who is using generalities to try to make a specific point. Nobody is saying that men and women, as groups, are equally physically capable.

What some of us is saying is that even if 99,995 of the 100,000 most capable are men, if you pick a unit of 100,000 and exclude women, you won't have the most capable out there. In fact, you'll have exactly what you are deriding - a unit in which some subpar members (the bottom 5) were selected because of their sex, not their qualifications.


In your hypothetical example of 100,000 and 99,995 you seem to believe that a 1 out of 20,000 makes a difference. There comes a point when the law of diminishing returns come into play when making decisions. How did you decide that 5 of these women out of the thousands upon thousands that apply are more apt to be more qualified?

Are you saying that we should test let us say 15,000 women to find 1 or 2 or 3 that is qualified? Because remember all of the applicants have the possibility of being on the front line. Lets be realistic here we are picking 100,000 combatants and you feel we shoud now try and find 5 women who are better fit then the least 5 combat ready males. If this is your theory you definitely belong in government because I cannot think of a more frivilous way to waste taxpayer money than your theory. Just pick the 100,000 men and be right 99,995 times out of 100,000 but leave out of the equation the 15,000 women applicants. There are many positions that they are more than capable of serving in. Why cause anxeity among the troops as they aleady have enough to worry about when heding into a combat situation without throwing women into the mix.

I am not saying that they are not willing to give their all. I am saying that for the most part a male is going to be more qualified (odds) and other males are going to be more at ease with a male for backing him up.
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If you're in factor of sacrificing quality for arbitrary gender quotas, it's ok...you have lots of company. I just wouldn't have expected it from you.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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Just saw a political commercial.....we can outsource our military.
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I am fascinated by the reference to combat troops as being those "on the front lines." In most of today's combat situations there is no such thing. In places like Afghanistan and Iraq the are/were no real front lines. And as the Christian Science Monitor article I referenced earlier made clear, there are situations in such combat theaters of operations where women play vital roles in de facto combat assignments.
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On 2012-07-19 12:32, mastermindreader wrote:
Either acesover is intentionally misstating my position or he simply doesn't understand it. I am using specifics to demonstrate that generalities do NOT apply to ALL people. He is the one speaking in generalities and ignoring or dismissing any and all examples that prove that his generalities do not ALWAYS apply.

As to him misstating my position, I wish he would point out where I said anything as inane as:

Quote:
You may think differently and when being attacked you can quote the US constitution to the enemy and counsel him, maybe pass on some anger management ideas to calm him down. That should work. Bang your dead and so is your bud, you just bought the farm. You feel you are correct and that is all that matters. So be it.


Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous and false. I think that it is HE who feels that his being correct is all that matters- even if it means misstating my positions and attacking straw men.


Don't bring into play the straw man. I am not mistating your position at all. Your position is that women are as capable as men in a combat situation. Read the first page of your comments. I amnot making it up. I will admit you sort of, and I say sort of, hedge what you say becausse you use the word qualify...but then go on to talk about fire fighters and such and we all know the qualifications are reduced for them. You also state that I believe it is your daughter is as capable as any man in the Navy or on the same ship which leads one to believe that either she is exceptional (and all of my daughters are exceptional in my eyes Smile ) or you ae trying to prove that women in general are as competent in rigorous tasks as men. Well it isn't so.

So I am in no way mistating your position.
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On 2012-07-19 13:25, mastermindreader wrote:
I am fascinated by the reference to combat troops as being those "on the front lines." In most of today's combat situations there is no such thing. In places like Afghanistan and Iraq the are/were no real front lines. And as the Christian Science Monitor article I referenced earlier made clear, there are situations in such combat theaters of operations where women play vital roles in de facto combat assignments.


I can finally agree with what you are sayng here as most of my position has been from Nam. The conflicts now are quite different.

This does give pause.
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What do you mean you are not misstating my position? Did you even read what you wrote and what I am specifically referring to? Here, I'll quote you AGAIN:

Quote:
You may think differently and when being attacked you can quote the US constitution to the enemy and counsel him, maybe pass on some anger management ideas to calm him down. That should work. Bang your dead and so is your bud, you just bought the farm. You feel you are correct and that is all that matters. So be it.


THAT IS NOT MY POSITION. IT IS A STRAW MAN.

I can only conclude that you are being intentionally obtuse.
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On 2012-07-19 13:25, acesover wrote:
I am not mistating your position at all. Your position is that women are as capable as men in a combat situation.



Ok, this has been an interesting thread, but clearly this statement reveals that it's been a gag. Great joke!!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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