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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Interesting Poll: Should women join the infantry (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dreadnought
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I don't know why it's not true. I was in Ranger Bat and we had two women attached to us, one served in PAC and the other in supply, they were both assigned to the S shops not at company level. One was housed at 9th Avaition and the other at 9th Signal, I think that was the units they came from. One was there a year and one longer, I don't know how long as I came down on orders for Germany and she was still in PAC when I out processed. I knew of two women who wore green berets and had the 5th SF group on their shoulder. All were airborne qualified and none wore their particular unit's tab. The two women assigned to our battalion had to maintain their airborne qualification which meant, at times, a forced march with combat dress. When we went to the field, they went. If we deployed, they deployed with us.

To Santa: In terms of physical assessment.The army is the same way in terms of physical assessment, age and gender.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Also, Defcon levels change. I would imagine that Defcon 1 is the same. Defcon 1 (Nuclear War or invasion is imminent), during the Cold War era, called for, and I would imagine, still calls for, all able bodied citizens to include women and children. Just what role women and children would play, I have never been real sure of, be it manning a defensive position or helping out in medical and supply units.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

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MagicSanta
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I agree with Dread we just have to give seminars on sensativity to the enemy. It can be like OSHA, we require the enemy to pass a test and they get a special wrist band to wear.

We will even change the green beret song

Put rainbow bands upon their wrist
It indicates they chased their bliss
These burly people are Americas best
Let's ignore their arse and chest
Marlin1894
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 15:53, Dreadnought wrote:
I don't know why it's not true. I was in Ranger Bat and we had two women attached to us, one served in PAC and the other in supply.

In terms of physical assessment.The army is the same way in terms of physical assessment, age and gender.


I don't know much about the Army but I believe you just explained why it's not true at the end of your comment. Someone in supply or PAC (is that personnel?) or admin in general takes the same annual PFT that everyone else does. Correct? There is no seperate PFT (I'm going say PFT because I'm not sure what the Army calls it. But I mean a Physical Fitness Test) based on MOS is there?

So a woman who went to admin school has not had to meet even the same physical requirements of a male who goes to the same school. Because there are seperate PFT's for men and women. Not to mention that Infantry Training school is more rigorous physically than most admin type schools. See what I'm saying?

So couldn't a person easily be attached to, or be stationed in, a "combat zone" without having met the same physical requirements as the infantry troops they are supporting? Or, in fact, not even met the same physical requirements as the men who share the same MOS?
Dreadnought
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Those new lyrics make sense considering that statue they have. If you really want to pi88 off a green beret, just refer to that statue by it's nickname.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 15:35, MagicSanta wrote:
I don't know what a strawman is outside of Oz.

Here is the fact concerning physical testing in the Navy and Marines. I don't know about the army. The standards are and always have been different based on sex and age.

The issue about infantry from what I know, which isn't much since I intentionally avoided the mud crawling. In combat situations with actual combat and movement will not allow for special accomidations. So let's say that is acceptable and we have a pack of six foot tall 180 pound women (who bt military standards are sexy). Scoopin and poopin and staring at big words with the fella's and fornicating every few minutes girls with girls, boys wit boys. Boys wit girls, and one group of three girls and two guys. Let us also assume we programed the fella's to not following instinct and wanting to protect the women. We still have to deal with the fact that if captured rape and all that stuff will go on and I am bothered by that aspect. That is one thing we cannot control.

When I was in because we were the experiment and my stand was the same, what happens to prisoners. Heck, even in wars where they sent in children they tended to not send in women as troops.


A straw man is an easy-to-defeat argument that you attribute to your opponent, even though he doesn't hold it. you put words in his mouth, and set up the straw man so you can knock it down.

In this cases, Aces has repeatedly said or suggested that Bob and I believe that women in general can compete equally against men in physical contests - a ridiculous position that is easy to knock down. But the fact of the matter is that we haven't said anything of the sort. We've only ever said that SOME women are better than SOME men, and *those* women should have the opportunity.

Seriously, the opposing argument to me reads like something close to:

"White people are better than black people at hockey. There has never been a black player on a Stanley Cup Champion, and no team from Africa has ever won an Olympic medal. All good International hockey teams comes from overwhelmingly white countries. Therefore, there should be a rule that black payers aren't allowed to play in the NHL."


For more on straw men, do a user name search from one of our dearly departed whose name I won't mention. But it rhymes with "dance." Pretty much any random post will do.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 16:17, LobowolfXXX wrote:
But it rhymes with "dance."

That's like a clue, isn't it?
Destiny
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Must be the American accent - when you say it with an Aussie accent it rhymes with crazy duck.
Dreadnought
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The Army PT test is not designed to break down by MOS. Every soldier takes the same PT test, push ups, sit ups and a two mile run based on their age and gender. Ranger units require all personnel to pass the test at the 18 year old level and score at least 90%. So, the women had to pass the test for an 18 year old female at the 90% level. There was also a quarterly 5 mile run that had to be completed, I can't remember the time, but it was a fast paced not a leisurely jog, since there was no Army standard for a five mile run, the standard was set by the Ranger Regiment and even the two females had to meet that standard. There was also a 25 mile forced march in combat dress, again the standard was set by the Ranger Regiment ( I think that was 3 or 3 1/2 hours). The only thing MOS centered is the MOS qualification test one had to take every year.

The current PT standards are, and I believe they were the same back in the 80's.

Men (18 yoa) Men (18 yoa)@90% Women (18 yoa) Women (18 yoa)@90%

Push ups (2 min. timed)
49 64 25 36

Sit ups (2 min. timed)
59 72 Same Same

2 mile run (Timed)
15:12 13:42 18:06 16:24

Also, Army basic training is broken down into two phases. The first phase is basic training which is basic infantry training which everyone receives which is 8 week. The second phase is the AIT phase (Advanced Individual Training. The length of AIT training is different depending on the MOS. Advanced infantry training (those people with the specific infantry MOS) is another 8 weeks. Some schools are shorter than that, others are much longer some were a year long.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

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Scott

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Marlin1894
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Precisely Dreadnought.

That's why the statement "however they are already assigned or attached to those units in a merely support role, which means they have to meet the same and more strenuous physical requirements as the men." is incorrect.

There are women attached to infantry units in support roles who have NOT met "the same and more strenuous physical requirements as the men". That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, believe me.
Dreadnought
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Okay that table didn't turn out as readable as I thought it would, here it is again.

Push ups (2 min. timed)
Men (18 yoa) 49 / Men (18 yoa)@90% 64, Women (18 yoa) 25 / Women (18 yoa)@90% 36

Sit ups (2 min. timed)
Men & Women (18 yoa)59 / Men & Women (18 yoa)@90%72

2 mile run (Timed)
Men (18 yoa)15:12 / Men (18 yoa)@90% 13:42, Women (18 yoa)18:06 / Women (18 yoa)@90% 16:24

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 16:36, Marlin1894 wrote:
Precisely Dreadnought.

That's why the statement "however they are already assigned or attached to those units in a merely support role, which means they have to meet the same and more strenuous physical requirements as the men." is incorrect.

There are women attached to infantry units in support roles who have NOT met "the same and more strenuous physical requirements as the men". That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, believe me.


Not incorrect, just semantics.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

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Scott

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Marlin1894
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No. Not semantics. It's actually incorrect, but I will drop it.

Peace and Godspeed to you Sir. Thanks for your Service.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 14:25, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-19 13:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-19 13:25, acesover wrote:
I am not mistating your position at all. Your position is that women are as capable as men in a combat situation.



Ok, this has been an interesting thread, but clearly this statement reveals that it's been a gag. Great joke!!


It has to be a joke, Lobo, because I can't believe that ANYONE who has read and understood my posts could conclude that is my position.

His statement is a perfect example of the straw man fallacy. He completely misunderstands or intentionally mischaracterizes my (and your) position, and then attacks that mischaracterization.


Alright lets me understand you. You are saying women should be allowed in combat situations with men as long as they qualify. Hmmmm as long as they qualify. What standards are the qualifications? Are they different then the men? Please answer.

By your logic we can accept 11 year olds into combat situations. All we havea to do is lower the standards or as you say qualifications. Now they are as you say qualified. Seriously now does that make sense?

When you passed your bar exam did they have lower standards for people not as smart as yourself? Do you think they should? I mean those people who want to be lawyers just as badly as you did. They went to college received the education but for some reason or other they could not make the grade. So by your logic those people should have a different set of standards to be judged on because they are having a hard time passing the bar exam. So lower the standard so they can pass. Let them defend the innocent. So what if they mess up...so let them back up their fellow soldiers in combat along with themselves so what if they are not quite as good as they should be. Lower the standards. Then they qualify.

Well I certainly don't want a lawyer defending me that can't pass the bar exam. Nor do I want help from someone in a combat situation who does not pass the same qualifications as I did but are there because they lowered the bar so they can be a combat soldier. If the womanis capable of doing everything their male counterpart can do fine. But as soon as you make exceptions because they are women it is off the table.

However what went on in Nam I personally do not think many women could handle what we encountered and how we responded.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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How many times do you want me to answer the same question? I have said at least a half dozen times that they should have to meet the same physical and mental qualifications as the men.
acesover
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On 2012-07-19 17:31, mastermindreader wrote:
How many times do you want me to answer the same question? I have said at least a half dozen times that they should have to meet the same physical and mental qualifications as the men.

I am now absolutely convinced that you haven't really read any of my posts very closely.


But they don't have to. That is the issue.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 17:20, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-19 14:25, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-19 13:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-19 13:25, acesover wrote:
I am not mistating your position at all. Your position is that women are as capable as men in a combat situation.



Ok, this has been an interesting thread, but clearly this statement reveals that it's been a gag. Great joke!!


It has to be a joke, Lobo, because I can't believe that ANYONE who has read and understood my posts could conclude that is my position.

His statement is a perfect example of the straw man fallacy. He completely misunderstands or intentionally mischaracterizes my (and your) position, and then attacks that mischaracterization.


Alright lets me understand you. You are saying women should be allowed in combat situations with men as long as they qualify. Hmmmm as long as they qualify. What standards are the qualifications? Are they different then the men? Please answer.

By your logic we can accept 11 year olds into combat situations. All we havea to do is lower the standards or as you say qualifications. Now they are as you say qualified. Seriously now does that make sense?

When you passed your bar exam did they have lower standards for people not as smart as yourself? Do you think they should? I mean those people who want to be lawyers just as badly as you did. They went to college received the education but for some reason or other they could not make the grade. So by your logic those people should have a different set of standards to be judged on because they are having a hard time passing the bar exam. So lower the standard so they can pass. Let them defend the innocent. So what if they mess up...so let them back up their fellow soldiers in combat along with themselves so what if they are not quite as good as they should be. Lower the standards. Then they qualify.

Well I certainly don't want a lawyer defending me that can't pass the bar exam. Nor do I want help from someone in a combat situation who does not pass the same qualifications as I did but are there because they lowered the bar so they can be a combat soldier. If the womanis capable of doing everything their male counterpart can do fine. But as soon as you make exceptions because they are women it is off the table.

However what went on in Nam I personally do not think many women could handle what we encountered and how we responded.




If you're seriously asking the question in your first paragraph, you aren't reading the replies.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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JEEEZ! You asked for our opinions about whether women should be in the infantry or not! I gave you mine.

My position has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not standards are currently different for women. That wasn't the question.

You've already agreed with my entire argument when you wrote, "If the woman is capable of doing everything their male counterpart can do fine."
Marlin1894
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 17:33, acesover wrote:

But they don't have to. That is the issue.


Ok, now I'm lost. At present women can't serve in the infantry at all. By any standard, right? I thought this was a theoretical discussion at this point. Did I miss an annoucement from the Pentagon or something?
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-07-19 16:29, Destiny wrote:
Must be the American accent - when you say it with an Aussie accent it rhymes with crazy duck.


This doesn't help because you people pronouce crazy as "cry-zee." At least, Crocodile Dundee does.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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