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balducci
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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/12775......troversy

With Wieber not advancing to the all-around final, the Internet is buzzing with complaints about the rule that only allows two gymnasts per country to qualify. By the reaction, you would think that this was a brand-new rule change or that Wieber was the first athlete to finish in the top 24 and not compete.

Of course, that is not the case.

When the FIG (Federation Internationale de Gymnastique) reduced the amount of athletes that can compete from three per country to two, they also reduced the field from 36 to 24. With the reduced field, controls had to be implemented to keep a small section of dominant countries from taking all the spots in the competition, which would not be good for the sport globally.

The rule has been in place at the past two Olympic Games without much uproar. In 2004, Mohini Bhardwaj finished eighth overall and did not advance since she was the third-best American, like Wieber.

In 2000, when three gymnasts per country were allowed to compete, Russian gymnast Elena Zamolodchikova finished seventh but did not qualify, since she was the fourth best from Russia.

Think of the all-around qualification in the same manner as the Olympic trials. The athletes are competing for their opportunity to participate as individuals at the Olympics. In every sport, there is a per-country athlete limit. Even if the U.S. has the third-fastest swimmer in the world, they can't compete in the Olympic Games due to a two-athlete-per-event rule.

[See link for remainder.]
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Marlin1894
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Quote:
On 2012-07-30 12:31, Tom Cutts wrote:
Wow, you guys have the Olympics completely confused with World Championships. The modern day Olympics is SPECIFICALLY about countries competing against each other..


Is that only for team events or events where the judges score the competition? I watched the Italian women go 1-2-3 in the foil portion of the fencing competition. They each worked their way through the brackets, beat their various opponents, and wound up taking all three medals. The bronze match was Italy vs S. Korea I believe, and obviously the Gold medal match was Italy vs Italy.
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In USA track, there is an Olympic "A" standard that must be met to even make it to the games. Does anyone know whether other countries have similar guidelines, or whether other sports have similar guidelines? Is is a USA thing or an Olympic thing?
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balducci
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On 2012-07-30 12:56, ClintonMagus wrote:
In USA track, there is an Olympic "A" standard that must be met to even make it to the games. Does anyone know whether other countries have similar guidelines, or whether other sports have similar guidelines? Is is a USA thing or an Olympic thing?

Not quite true, I think. At least one U.S. athlete made it to the games having only achieved a B standard.

"No American woman achieved the triple jump A standard during the past year, but Amanda Smock - who won Monday's final - previously reached the B standard and will represent the U.S. in London."

Another article I read suggested that there were other U.S. athletes who only satisfied the B standard, but I am not going to spend my time searching for names.
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balducci
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Quote:
On 2012-07-30 12:56, ClintonMagus wrote:

In USA track, there is an Olympic "A" standard that must be met to even make it to the games. Does anyone know whether other countries have similar guidelines, or whether other sports have similar guidelines? Is is a USA thing or an Olympic thing?

Looks like an Olympic thing, at least in Track and Field:

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/document/statisti......4135.pdf

The U.S. "A" standards you mention (likewise the "B") are, apparently, lower than what the IAAF actually requires to compete in the Olympic Games. So at the U.S. Olympic Trials, I guess any qualifying athlete (i.e. that satisfied the national standard) has to compete and raise their game to the IAAF level?

Apparently, Canada's national qualifying standards are harsher than those in the U.S. and that has generated some criticism.

http://letsgopro.blogspot.ca/2012/07/can......rds.html
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Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-30 12:47, Marlin1894 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-30 12:31, Tom Cutts wrote:
Wow, you guys have the Olympics completely confused with World Championships. The modern day Olympics is SPECIFICALLY about countries competing against each other..


Is that only for team events or events where the judges score the competition? I watched the Italian women go 1-2-3 in the foil portion of the fencing competition. They each worked their way through the brackets, beat their various opponents, and wound up taking all three medals. The bronze match was Italy vs S. Korea I believe, and obviously the Gold medal match was Italy vs Italy.
Do you understand how Fencing competitions work?
Marlin1894
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On 2012-07-30 14:04, Tom Cutts wrote:
Do you understand how Fencing competitions work?


What does that have to do with anything? I asked a question, if you don't want to answer it then let someone else do it.

If the modern day Olympics is SPECIFICALLY about countries competing against each other, why don't they jostle things around to make sure one country doesn't sweep all the medals?
ClintonMagus
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In track and field, the "A" standard just means that you are free to send multiple athletes in an event up to an "approved" number. If no one meets the "A" standard in an event, then a single "B" standard athlete can be sent.

Quote:
Is that only for team events or events where the judges score the competition? I watched the Italian women go 1-2-3 in the foil portion of the fencing competition. They each worked their way through the brackets, beat their various opponents, and wound up taking all three medals. The bronze match was Italy vs S. Korea I believe, and obviously the Gold medal match was Italy vs Italy.


I don't "understand" fencing necessarily, but I have no problem with the best getting the medals, regardless of how many come from a single team. I also have no problems with re-seeding teams in a finals event (such as college baseball) to make sure the best teams have the best chance to advance.
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Tom Cutts
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You asked about fencing. THAT is what it has to do with anything. If you don't understand how fencing works, then discussion of the results is pointless. If you understand the rules of fencing we can discuss how a country could sweep the podium in fencing or swimming or skating. The point is EVERY country which wanted to got to compete. The pool in Fencing is larger than 24 people, hence more than two from any country may compete. Though I bet there is a limit there as well. Maybe it is three, maybe four or five.
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It has absolutely nothing to do withh the rules of fencing. It has to do with the format of the competition.
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I know I wouldn't want a gold medal if I won it by competing against those whose skills weren't the best in the world. Everyone would know, but worse, I would know.

I was in a weightlifting contest in the '70's, competing against the collegiate national champion in my weight class. He missed all of his snatches and I won by default. I stewed for a year waiting for the opportunity to win by lifting more weight than him, which did happen a year later.
ClintonMagus
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On 2012-07-30 16:14, NicholasD wrote:
I know I wouldn't want a gold medal if I won it by competing against those whose skills weren't the best in the world. Everyone would know, but worse, I would know.


The Olympics are a unique combination of teams and individuals. Sometimes, when entire teams are selected for competition rather than individuals (high school or college), you compete against whoever is in your event. You may not be competing against the best discus throwers in the country, but you are competing against the discus throwers on the best TEAMS in the country. As a team member, you try to do your best to get the most points you can get for your team. If you earn a "gold" in your event along the way, it's perfectly valid. It shows that you did your job.
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Dannydoyle
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On 2012-07-30 16:14, NicholasD wrote:
I know I wouldn't want a gold medal if I won it by competing against those whose skills weren't the best in the world. Everyone would know, but worse, I would know.

I was in a weightlifting contest in the '70's, competing against the collegiate national champion in my weight class. He missed all of his snatches and I won by default. I stewed for a year waiting for the opportunity to win by lifting more weight than him, which did happen a year later.


I know lots of athletes drive themselves nuts like this but you.miss the point. The lift is as much mental preparation as physical. He missed because he wasn't mentally prepared and you were. You won because of your total preparation, not just your physical prowess.

These people ARE competing against the best in the world. Just because the best can't manage to get through it in no way diminishes the win. It is for the whole competition, and you need to exec in that fashion if you want the Wheaties box.
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ClintonMagus
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Sometimes you win because you are better. Sometimes you win by psyching out the opponent. Sometimes you win by strategy (opening height selection, etc.) Sometimes you win by simply gritting it out. They are all equally valid means to a victory.
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Chessmann
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I'm on the side that that best should get in - don't like the "well, we have to be 'fair' (ugh) so only the top 2 from each country make the all-around" rule.

However....

If you win the gold, you still beat the people who beat the person who "should have got in". So to me, it is a valid Olympic win.

But - the person who finished 4th should have been included among the top 10 who qualified, IMHO.
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Ray Tupper.
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I suppose this rule has been in place for donkeys years.
The first time it doesn't go in your favour...it's a w4nk rule.
Interesting.
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ClintonMagus
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On 2012-07-30 17:12, Ray Tupper. wrote:
I suppose this rule has been in place for donkeys years.
The first time it doesn't go in your favour...it's a w4nk rule.
Interesting.


It's a lousy rule, regardless, if the best don't get to compete. If the best got beat in a heat or as part of a pool, it would be fine, but taking the top 24 and excluding #4 (and #12 in the case of the Russians, #21 for GBR, and #22 for China) "because we want all of the countries to partcipate since they would be sad otherwise" stinks.

1 403 KOMOVA Victoria RUS 15.633 15.833 15.266 13.900 60.632 Q
2 413 RAISMAN Alexandra USA 15.800 14.166 15.100 15.325 60.391 Q
3 411 DOUGLAS Gabrielle USA 15.900 15.333 15.266 13.766 60.265 Q
4 415 WIEBER Jordyn USA 15.833 14.833 14.700 14.666 60.032
5 404 MUSTAFINA Aliya RUS 15.133 15.700 14.700 14.433 59.966 Q
6 331 DENG Linlin CHN 14.833 14.166 15.166 13.833 57.998 Q
7 374 FERRARI Vanessa ITA 14.366 14.233 14.433 14.900 57.932 Q
8 384 TERAMOTO Asuka JPN 14.600 14.566 14.466 14.233 57.865 Q
9 393 IORDACHE Larisa Andreea ROU 15.100 14.100 14.800 13.800 57.800 Q
10 333 HUANG Qiushuang CHN 15.000 15.266 13.866 13.575 57.707 Q
11 394 IZBASA Sandra Raluca ROU 15.500 12.366 14.600 15.066 57.532 Q
12 402 GRISHINA Anastasia RUS 14.333 14.033 14.900 14.066 57.332
13 453 LOPEZ Jessica VEN 14.566 14.266 13.933 13.900 56.665 Q
14 365 SEITZ Elisabeth GER 14.800 15.166 12.700 13.800 56.466 Q
15 353 TUNNEY Rebecca GBR 14.400 14.825 13.166 14.000 56.391 Q
16 425 GOMEZ PORRAS Ana Sofia GUA 14.533 13.266 14.333 14.000 56.132 Q
17 355 WHELAN Hannah GBR 14.500 14.200 13.066 13.933 55.699 Q
18 323 PEGG Dominique CAN 14.133 13.725 13.566 14.233 55.657 Q
19 441 van GERNER Celine NED 13.700 14.866 14.100 12.966 55.632 Q
20 373 FERLITO Carlotta ITA 14.100 13.075 14.425 13.900 55.500 Q
21 352 PINCHES Jennifer GBR 14.366 13.700 13.100 14.100 55.266
22 335 YAO Jinnan CHN 13.133 15.766 12.833 13.066 54.798
23 433 STEINGRUBER Giulia SUI 14.783 13.266 13.766 12.900 54.715 Q
24 303 LITTLE Emily AUS 14.766 13.433 13.633 12.666 54.498 Q
25 344 MALAUSSENA Aurelie FRA 14.033 13.300 13.700 13.366 54.399 Q
26 431 PIHAN-KULESZA Marta POL 13.833 14.033 12.166 14.333 54.365 Q
27 383 TANAKA Rie JPN 13.000 14.633 13.400 13.300 54.333 Q
28 302 BRENNAN Ashleigh AUS 13.700 13.266 13.066 14.200 54.232 Q
29 343 KUHM Anne FRA 14.466 13.533 12.566 13.533 54.098 R1
30 372 FASANA Erika ITA 14.000 13.666 12.266 14.033 53.965
31 429 MYS Gaelle BEL 13.533 13.266 13.733 13.166 53.698 R2
32 325 VACULIK Kristina CAN 14.100 14.366 11.300 13.800 53.566 R3
33 457 IZURIETA Ana Maria ESP 14.800 12.600 12.000 14.133 53.533 R4
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Ray Tupper.
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Tell that to the fastest man in the world who false starts twice in the heats.
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ClintonMagus
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On 2012-07-30 17:46, Ray Tupper. wrote:
Tell that to the fastest man in the world who false starts twice in the heats.


I would, but I don't know him...
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Tom Cutts
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On 2012-07-30 17:25, ClintonMagus wrote:
It's a lousy rule, regardless, if the best don't get to compete.
May I suggest you don't watch the Olympics. What you want to watch are the world championships of each different sport. The Olympics aren't that!
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