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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
The beauty of what Pop is saying and I hadn't really thought of it before now...is that your 'character' can grow just like a 'real' person would grow. As I was reading the thread it really hit me how impossible it would be to 'fully flesh out' a particular character and how ultimately stultifying it would be in any case. What if your character wouldn't do "x", and suddenly and really terrific routine is placed in front of you that breaks that 'rule' of your character.
Pop's construction ultimately DOES, hmmmm, play to the 'magic' and the character GROWS as he learns to accommodate new experience. Just like real life. The gambling theme is a very interesting one. Consider that if your character does not do gambling stuff BECAUSE of the cheating issue? No problem really. Consider the classic Gambler VS. Magician theme. How about a routine in which the 'Wizard' overcomes the dastardly gambler not with gambling skill, but by using 'magic' to come out ahead and maybe teach the bounder a lesson, etc. Best,
Brad Burt
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
Still... I started with cards, and I don't want to do cards now, or have anything to do with them. I want to grow that far, that I don't use cards at all.
Cards in my opinion are considered tricks and gambling, I don't want my character to do a lot with that, although I see him doing magic with dice and such. A character can learn, but he can't step out of his role as Mr. Haydn does repeatedly with his character. I'm sorry but that is how it is. The turban character is hugely different from the mad inventor. He just created several characters that resemble eachother a lot, but he has still several. I create one, and try to stay true to him, because my whole performance must be consistent. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
I believe my whole performance is consistant, and it is one character, with one story, one history.
Cards don't have to be "tricks and gambling." Look at the magic tricks that the super mentally powerful character on the old Star Trek television series. He offered to show the crew a card trick, and then with his mind, he turned several cards into photos of Uhuru. By trying to hide his abilities behind a card trick, he actually revealed the card trick to be 'real magic.' You; are stopping your work too early. |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
How am I stopping my work to early?
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
You haven't finished working out your character and his story. You haven't answered all the questions an actor or author has to ask in order to make the character real. If you don't fill the costume with character and history, the costume will wear you instead of your character wearing the costume.
The costume you put on should not be a strait jacket. Here are three different pieces, I believe all ONE character, ONE story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_s-WCj7Uzs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUspKd3WK4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKPOXPsP......ure=plcp |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
I don't need to fill out every detail either, to make the character work, because I have seen him do his thing in my mind (that's how I created him) I saw him enter a bar, ordering a drink and then being out of money produce a coin in his own way. I may not know everything yet, I know enough to start working from. I'm going to flesh out his story starting without 3 quarters of an hour, during a writing month, to start fleshing out his past.
I know what you mean, but how he dresses, is only a part, it's not his whole being. I know some details about him, but I don't know them all, that gives him an air of mystery, for myself and the onlooker. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
I think you have a good start. It is a long process. I have been studying the 19th Century con men and gamblers, the Gold Rush and Medicine Shows since 1996. I didn't start the Pop character until 2005, and he is still evolving. He has come a long way since the tin-horn gambler he started out to be...
Getting the voice, accent and mannerisms to seem natural has taken quite a while. The story has evolved quite a bit in the last seven years. I really just wanted to suggest that you should let the magic be the guide to your character, and not let your character decide your performance options. The character is only there to support and help present the magic, and not the other way around. I have seen many magicians make this mistake, and it leads to bad art. For some perspective, here is the character I played before Pop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbhEbQqqvw He is less like me than Pop, and he was very limiting, in my opinion. I actually had two different characters, one for close-up and one for stage. I couldn't find a way to reconcile. I eventually realized I needed to construct a new character that would let me expand my range and yet be consistent across venues, close-up, parlor and stage. At sixty-three, it is fun to still be deeply involved in creating new things. If you don't know things about your character, it leaves a blank in the spectator's mind, not a mystery. Mystery comes from knowing your past, and not revealing it, not from having a past you can't remember. |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
I love your feedback, Mr. Haydn. Although I was skeptical at first, I can see the point. Although I disagree on one point, that thinking from character limits your magic. Yes, It limits it to some extent, but I think it is a good thing, that way you never get magic that is inconsistent with your character.
I don't like magicians that do all kinds of magic unmotivated, as if they are performing stunts. The most blatant example I saw was pulling a rubberband through a playing card, for no more reason then pulling a rubber band through a playing card and leaving it undamaged. That's why I think character first, so I don't appear to look doing mere stunts. I want a logical story in my performance, and to achieve that, I need to think character first. it's a concious choice on my part. I think I have come a far way already, being only 25, and having only 7 years of magic under my belt. I know that I need to learn a lot, but I have come a far way, learning from what I don't like in other magicians, so I don't do the same thing. I think I deserve a little credit . I love to learn from the great people in the business, and getting to learn from a 6 times magic of the year winner, is a great honor. He investing time in my development is nothing more then an honor. Thank you. Next thing up is writing my background, but I need my voicerecorder for that, because I have to see it, and writing while I'm seeing it all happens, is limiting for me, because I need to think in words then, and that interrupts the images. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I don't know much about character development compared with Whit, but do know a bit about wizardry throughout history.
Your model of a Wizard seems to be based on Hollywood's mangling of the ancient concept of what a wizard does or empowers. This is great since you are appealing to the mass perceptions of what a wizard is. But don't limit yourself to any ethical limitation based on ancient principles -- do what will entertain and engage the audience with a story that will seem plausible to the audience of choice -- accuracy not required.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
Mine is based on a healthy mixture of Gandalf and Harry Potter (although I didn't do it conciously).
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Whit,
I don't necessarily think it's limiting to think character-first. Even in the situation you describe, where your character was altered in order to account for the direction you wanted your magic to go in, there's still a relationship there between the character and the character's magic, and a need to make sure that this relationship works. So long as it does work on-stage, who cares about the process it took to get there? Who cares if the performer started with the character first and then chose magic to suit that character, or if they chose the magic first and then adjusted the character to accommodate it?
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
It isn't a matter of which comes first. There is always going to be back and forth tinkering. The important thing is that the magic is the important thing. The character is meant to serve the magic. Maskelyne and Devant said that in the Art of Magic, the needs of the magic must first be addressed, and then and only then should the needs of the Art of Theater be met. In a theatrical presentation, in which the point is the story or the message, the needs of the story come foremost, and the needs of the Art of Magic must be sublimated to the needs of the story--too amazing effects of flying can actually take the audience out of the story of Peter Pan, making them think, "How do they do that?"
What I am most concerned about is letting the character determine the magical decision, limiting what the artist can do, when the character is so easily changed by the artist to accommodate the magic. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
I guess I'm just confused on a practical level in terms of the final result.
If a performer sets a personal filter -- even something arbitrary, like "My character can't fly" -- where does it follow that in the final result the magic is being made to serve theater? So long as the character's motivations aren't being made overt, isn't the absence of flight in his show functionally the same as the absence of flight in any show? Including a show where the magician chooses the magic he likes and then adjusts the character to fit?
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
If the magician discovers a wonderful method for flying, that he really wants to perform, should he not use it because he has arbitrarily decided that his character "can't fly?"
If a performer has a "gambler" theme, does that mean that he can never do anything but gambler's tricks? The problem is that so many magicians stop their thinking about character once they choose a theme and a costume. They let the most obvious and cliched characteristics of the character determine what they are permitted to do. That is what is wrong. The character is a creation chosen to serve the artist's magic, not limit it. Give me an example of a character or theme that "can't" do a certain trick. |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-08-01 12:09, The Burnaby Kid wrote: As I understand it that's what's wrong with limiting your 'magic' selection based on arbitrary ideas of what a 'character' can or can not or might or might do/perform. Let's say you decide that a character that is overtly 'gambler' themed CAN NOT fly! And, then in walks someone who shows you a method so cool, so perfect for almost any venue whether close or far that allows you/gambler to fly. All Pop is saying is that you drop the arbitrary idea that 'gamblers don't fly' and come up with a sufficient 'story' that explains why THIS gambler might in fact fly. He's NOT saying that you HAVE to do so. He's saying that the character SHOULD always be turned to SERVE THE MAGIC and not the other way around. For instance and these are just brain storm ideas tossed off as fast as I can think them up: -Maybe he has a flying fit because he drinks a joke bottle of Fizzy Lifting Drink ala Wonka. -Maybe in a dream he has cheated some guys and in the dream he flys away -Maybe the reason he 'wins' so much at cards is that he USES MAGIC POWERES!!! And, on and on and on. Magic will always BE the center of the performance OR magic will be subverted if you will to some other purpose as in the telling of a story in which it's the STORY that is the center of the attention and meant to be and the magic is only a device used to 'sell the story' or enhance same. But, Pop's point and it's an exceptionally valid point is that IF that what is happening, then you have be sure that the 'magic' is not stronger than the flow of the story or you subvert the story! Ya gotta decide what it IS that you are doing with the magic. Are you a magician or a story teller? Magic is the focus of the one and NOT of the other. Even in a routine (magic) that has a heavily complex story the STORY serves the purpose of pushing forward and revealing the MAGIC! The story even though it takes up a lot of the time in presentation is STILL the secondary feature of that presentation. In other words at the end of the presentation of magic you want folks to remember the 'magic' and the story ONLY as it enhances the memory of the magic experience, etc. Best,
Brad Burt
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Couldn't have said it any better.
Magic is an Artform. It is also a technology. When it is used in service to theater, story, or message, it is no longer an artform in itself, but a technology enthrall to some other purpose than its own. As Maskelyne says, it becomes a transitional device or special effect. There is nothing wrong with this, and it can be very entertaining and valuable. It is just that it isn't the Art of Magic, because the rules of strong magic (the dilemma) have to be compromised for the sake of the message or story. |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Exactly! Another thing occurred to me and that's that you can make the mistake of thinking that the 'magic' a specific character does has to somehow be 'logical'. The problem with that is that virtually every 'logical' application is essentially arbitrary!
Why is that? Because, there is 'essentially' nothing logical about magic as such. I've paraphrased Ray Feist before, but the "The real secret of magic as we do it...is that there is NO magic as we do it." It is in fact all tricks. For those who wish folks to see a logic behind 'magic', you have the problem of: If you could REALLY do magic you would not do it for parties! You would produce real one once gold coins when you needed some money...etc.etc. Folks KNOW this. Thus whatever ...... WHATEVER effect or type of routine you want to fit into virtually ANY character is by definition LOGICAL at the outset. All you need supply is the context for it. As Pop notes...your character grows to fit the magic not the other way around. But, that's the beauty of it! You need never by stymied by whether you will or you won't. All you have to discover is the how to make it fit...BY expanding your character to accept it. Best,
Brad Burt
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
To me it has to be logical to my character, because I perform as I would in a play, not as in a typical magic show. I don't care if it is tricks I perform, when I perform there aren't any tricks. The things are real for my character, so they are bound by certain rules, created by and for my character, like in theater and in books. In books, magic is bound by certain rules, otherwise a wizard could do anything he pleases, and you can read any book you want, they just can not.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Is this a stage act? Do you interact with the audience verbally?
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
Yes.
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