The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Magicians can't make magic shows anymore, because of the cups? (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3..17~18~19 [Next]
jimmy talksalot
View Profile
Special user
new orleans
757 Posts

Profile of jimmy talksalot
Why is it that there are so many people doing the cups on the street, the same way?

Heck why is there so many people doin the cups?

The Godfather was a pretty good movie, but they made more movies…..

Is it me or are magicians so dense they can’t see how obvious this is?

My opinion is that IF you are a magician it shouldn’t be that hard to do a magic show without the cups and balls….no really.

And if you want to do them as a magician why is it so hard to create your own routine from scratch….no really.

Heck, I’ve seen magicians at magic clubs come up with 10 different cup shows in an evening.

I’ve done em on the street and gottin paid, and every time it was just some routine I threw together, and I didn’t do em as a finale……many times I just did them on the ground as a crowd builder….silent.

I’m not superman, any magician with basic rudimentary skills could create a routine…NO REALLY!

I would understand of course, if you were some money guy who would just assume sell tax annuities as do a magic show if the money was right, then yeah maybe you’re not a creative person, I get it. It’s not your thing! makin money is!

So you say to yourself, “ I’ll just rip this artist off and do his show and call myself a magician.”
But if you’re a magician, why must it be done as a finale? Why must it always be the same routine as the other “street magicians”, and why must it be done as an insult show? And why must I have to point this out to magicians?

Thousands of magicians not on the street, but indoors, do it a million different ways, but why can’t so many of the guys I see out there on the street do it differently?

You know, I have seen street magicians who can do it.

Some do it silent as an opener to music, some do it on the ground, some do it in a wild costume with small animals, etc.

So we know it can be done….I just can’t see why so many pathetic so called “magicians” can’t seem to create a magic show…..I mean really isn’t that what a magician does?

I was just in Germany and watched a slew of international magic acts only one of which did the cups…and it was silent and in a mime/clown costume and all the acts got huge tips and all were light years ahead of the American acts, go figure.

Funny thing the famous Gary Animal, didn’t even do cups there, didn’t even have any with him. And he won best comedy. No table, no amp….just talent. Worked out of his pockets, doin sidewalks and giant circle shows whatever he felt like.

As some of you know he is famous for his hand made cups he sells, but he told me himself he was sick of all the cup acts, he said he was tired of watching the audience call out the next load because they had seen three guys before do the same routine. Understand he is arguable the best craftsman making cups in the world.

But hey if you wanna clone a show anyway, regardless of my opinion, or you have some “vision” you don’t think I understand, or whatever…. more power to you!

I just ain’t got time for it, so please don’t write me or call me looking for my help, for “your act.”
The guys I’m helping have a heavier work load then you and they need me more, they actually have to create something.

Besides you’ll need something to copy later, right!

You know, when there are a thousand of other clones on your pitch and you ain’t makin money.

AND DON’T GET ME WRONG I AM NOT SAYING THAT IF YOU DO CUPS YOU’RE SUCK OR SOMETHING…no way!

What I am sayin is if you’re a beginner and YOU KNOW that 90% of the “street magicians” are doin the cups……why would you choose to do them, you wouldn’t do it in a gig when you knew someone else was gonna do it, you’d just use other tricks for YOUR magic show.

Don’t be so intimidated by the street to think there is only one way to do it; it’s just a magic show.
No really, you remember when we used to do magic.

Your pal jimmy.
jazzy snazzy
View Profile
Inner circle
run off by a mob of Villagers wielding
2108 Posts

Profile of jazzy snazzy
Spot-on Jimmy!
Thank you.
"The secret of life is to look good from a distance."
-Charles Schulz
Sir Richard
View Profile
Special user
650 Posts

Profile of Sir Richard
Hmmm, very interesting point Jimmy, and I somewhat agree with you. So let me ask you this, why stop at just "cups?" Do we really need everybody doing the Color Changing Knives or the Chicago Opener? Look at the Linking Rings for crying out loud! Then there's The Professor's Nightmare, Crazy Man's Handcuffs...oh the list just goes on & on! I started doing some of Jim Cellini's stuff sometime back for several reasons.

1.) Nobody in my club had ever heard of him. (don't be too shocked, you'd be surprised to know how many people don't know who Lance Burton is.)

2.) Since they don't know who he was they don't have a clue as to what he did!

As for the cups & balls I don't copy most magicians, I copy Bill Malone on "Rub-a-Dub-Dub" almost word for word. At first I felt silly doing it, but after people like my mentor, and several other top-name magicians, like Tom Franks, encouraging me to continue, not to mention all of the "eyes popping, jaws dropping" when I perform it, I'll keep on doing it. Why? It's what helps me get the check sweetheart.

Sir Richard.
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
Magic.J.Manuel
View Profile
Special user
I have danced upon
664 Posts

Profile of Magic.J.Manuel
Wow, you TypeAlot too!
Nothing would get done at all, if man waited so long that no one could find fault with it.
Nick W
View Profile
Special user
513 Posts

Profile of Nick W
Sir Richard, nobody uses the knives like the cups. I'm from chicago and nobodys ever opened with it. it really is the cups hes calling attention to for a reason.
Sir Richard
View Profile
Special user
650 Posts

Profile of Sir Richard
Quote:
On 2012-08-22 22:21, Nick W wrote:
Sir Richard, nobody uses the knives like the cups. I'm from chicago and nobodys ever opened with it. it really is the cups hes calling attention to for a reason.

My point was that it seems to me that a lot of stuff we might learn is just a repeat of somebody else's stuff. I've personally witnessed many different versions of "The Chicago Opener," for example, by just about every lecturer we've ever had. His post just got me to thinking beyond what he was referring to. This is why I strive to always change things up and not copy other peoples stuff. BTW, I'd never open with C & B, that's my closer.

Sir Richard.
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
Pokie-Poke
View Profile
Special user
Bensalem, PA
883 Posts

Profile of Pokie-Poke
I don't think I ever finished with the cups. and as I don't use my table anymore (maybe to hold stuff) what cups?
@ Sir Richard, the thing Jimmy is talking about is the fact that lay people can tell what you are going to do because it is the same, down to the lines and jokes, the same as the last guy doing cups. I for one like performing but I'm not a singer so I don't do singalongs, "come on every body, whats next? your right it's an orange.."

I know some one doing the cups on the street, you know the bit, 6 final loads, something under the hat, then pass the hat. I don't need to say who, look up cups and balls on the street and you'll find some one doing it. he is very good at it, and very good performer, I just cringe when I see the cups.

with that, I still love the cups and balls, but they won't be in my street act for a while.
www.pokie-poke.com
The Adventure cont...
Mormo Zine
View Profile
Regular user
149 Posts

Profile of Mormo Zine
Not only does everyone on the street do them but every kids magic kit comes with a set as well. I like them as a toy but wouldn't perform for money with them.
Ours the magic, Ours the power!

See Mormo's Guide To Psychic Self Defense by clicking here.
Sir Richard
View Profile
Special user
650 Posts

Profile of Sir Richard
Quote:
On 2012-08-22 23:13, Pokie-Poke wrote:
...@ Sir Richard, the thing Jimmy is talking about is the fact that lay people can tell what you are going to do because it is the same, down to the lines and jokes, the same as the last guy doing cups. I for one like performing but I'm not a singer so I don't do singalongs, "come on every body, whats next? your right it's an orange.."

I know some one doing the cups on the street, you know the bit, 6 final loads, something under the hat, then pass the hat. I don't need to say who, look up cups and balls on the street and you'll find some one doing it. he is very good at it, and very good performer, I just cringe when I see the cups.

with that, I still love the cups and balls, but they won't be in my street act for a while.

I once spent a day watching Jim Cellini do the cups and balls. I've been hooked ever since! If they were good enough for him they are good enough for me, but I'm not a Cellini or Gazzo clone! However I do understand what you mean about "cringing! I feel the same way about the color-changing knives, the Prof.'s Nightmare, Bill to Lemon, and so on!

Sir Richard.
Quote:
On 2012-08-22 23:28, Mormo Zine wrote:
Not only does everyone on the street do them but every kids magic kit comes with a set as well. I like them as a toy but wouldn't perform for money with them.

I respect you're choice. However I WILL and DO perform for money with them...and it works. However I use a different routine and maybe that's why I get away with it! No oranges for final loads, only rubber golf balls!

Sir Richard.

Posted: Aug 22, 2012 11:51pm
Another thought, I've seen many C & B routines from pros who've given lectures in our club that "kill:'

Paul Gertner, Michael Ammar, David Regal, Shawn Farqhuar, etc..

Sir Richard.
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
Devious
View Profile
Inner circle
2120 Posts

Profile of Devious
I can relate to the original post...
Devious Deceptions
"Gadol Elohai!"
L'Chaim!
jimmy talksalot
View Profile
Special user
new orleans
757 Posts

Profile of jimmy talksalot
Sir richard.

Paul Gertner, Michael Ammar, David Regal, Shawn Farqhuar,bill malone, lance Burton, tommy wonder, and jim cellini weren't doing gazzo's show as a closer on the street....are you?

these guys took the time to make the trick different, why is that so hard?

and at the end of cedllini's life, he was teaching people to do other finales or to do the cups on the ground.

and if that is good enough for cellini that is good enough for me.

you know all this really tells us the genius of jeff sheridan.......
Scotty Walsh
View Profile
Loyal user
Ireland
207 Posts

Profile of Scotty Walsh
I think the cups and balls are still fine. It's the identical and not deceptive final sequence with the 6 oranges and the melon that is wearing thin. Cellini finished with three loads and a grapefruit in the hat. And he didn't even need a pouch for that. Watch the first Cellini DVD on Street Performing, if you haven't, and you will be blown away at how he got the grapefruit in the hat. That is the outside the box thinking that the cups and balls needs more of. Maybe I'm missing something, but the loading method people are using makes me cringe. I understand it is angle proof, but it isn't deceptive at all, from any angle. Except for maybe directly behind, where the specs can't see anything anyway.
ed rhodes
View Profile
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2696 Posts

Profile of ed rhodes
I don't do Gazzo's routine. I don't do it because I can't bring anything to it. It's so strong, it would overwhelm me and I would be simply mimicking Gazzo. I do Mark Wilson's routine with two changes. One, I changed the "three lemons" ending for an ending with three over sized balls. This never fails to get a major reaction from people who think I'm going to show the three smaller balls under the cups for a third time.

Second, after showing the over sized balls, I patter that after a routine like that I'd like an ice-cold Corona... but you can't drink on the street AND there's nothing worse than a tipsy magician... but when I go home and crack open an ice-cold Corona, (lift the stack of cups to reveal a (artificial) lime) I have the lime.

These two changes never fail to get a reaction.
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
jimmy talksalot
View Profile
Special user
new orleans
757 Posts

Profile of jimmy talksalot
Copying a trick the way it was sold isn't what magician's do, it's what laymen do after they buy a trick.

just my opinion.
Magician Shaun
View Profile
Special user
Huntington BCH, CA
918 Posts

Profile of Magician Shaun
I agree that watching every single person do Gazzo's show on the street gets old. Really, really, old. I used to finale with a rope routine. I now am doing cups and balls. I am doing a variation on the Vernon/Malini routine. I use either 3 lemons or 3 limes or a combination of the two. I rarely use any more. I do a something in the hat (whatever is big and cheap at the grocery store). I have my own lines for the routine, I don't use Gazzo's. I don't do the, "let me show you how it's done" bit either. I am working on my routine that incorporates ideas I got from The Books of Wonder.

I also know that it doesn't matter what you finale with. As long as it is strong and you have good entertaining patter to go with it, you will get paid. That said, I like the cups and balls, I honestly am not happy doing the same show so many do. The reason I am performing the show the way I am now is so that I can learn about loads. Tommy Wonder had some great ideas on loading the cups, that used STRONG Misdirection. If you stick the cup into your pouch, I just think that is kinda lame. There are much better and less obvious ways to cover the loads. I can say that the Tommy Wonder misdirection in his two cup routine is so strong that he loads objects into the cups that are laying on the table in front of you. I have watched his cups and balls 100+ times and I have The Books of Wonder, I still don't see it happen. AMAZING. The thing is, this type of magic isn't easy.

In Gazzo's Cups and Balls material he says, these sleights are not difficult and there nothing in here that the beginner shouldn't be able to do. Other material is not like that all. A wand spin vanish is not something that just anyone can do well. The timing needed to execute some of the moves Tommy Wonder does is not simple to master. Creating your own show, with your own patter takes work. Coming up with your own sequence also takes work. So why is everyone on the street doing Gazzo's show? It is easy, it works, it pays, and you don't have to do any work to do it, it's all been done for you.

Why are there not thousands of Jimmy Tallksalot clones? I have an opinion on that as well. You see Gazzo's Character is the Cool guy that always quips at the audience. He is the guy that everyone wants to be, like a Rock Star. Jimmy's character is more like Billy Bob Thornton in Sling Blade. The character is great. The show is great. But no one dreams of being that guy, plus copying him isn't as easy. Gazzo's show is great, when Gazzo does it.

Now I am by no means as experienced as many other people here so if you disagree tell me why.
jimmy talksalot
View Profile
Special user
new orleans
757 Posts

Profile of jimmy talksalot
Scotty,

You make a very strong point. Also, this thinking outside of the box thing, is also what I am talking about.

I think the reason, these guys are doing EXACTLY the same thing is because they simply are not magicians and they simply can not do magic tricks unless they monkey see, monkey do, from the instructions of the trick.

I am not being arrogant or illitist or "artsy". Copying the instructions to a trick and then apeing it for some other layman does not make you a magician.

If this were true then everyone in the world would be a magician, simply by doing the snapper trick. What has happened here, is our industry has been invaded by hustlers from other industries out to get the money we make, because they saw a simple system to what we do. It's just another form of money guy out there laughing at us again. When you call them on it, they try and act like one of us, "oh I like magic too, but I wouldn't do it for free." Well anyone who has had the magic bug, knows, yes you would do it for free lol

What's worse is many "magicians" in our industry are so desperate for work, that they give up and agree with money guys, because they think this is the only way to make a living.

I'll never forget the day Sonny Holliday was at the Magic Castle for the first time and he spotted a row of move monkeys on a couch together all doing their pass for each other for hours.

Sonny looked stunned and apalled, he started screaming at them, "Where do you work! Where do you work!"

Just before he attacked one of them me and my friend Eric grabbed him and drug him away screaming. We told Sonny, "you can't do that Sonny, those guys help pay the bills here for the castle."

He said, "All I wanna know is where do they work."

Of course we know they don't. Any way, there are a lot of people right now reading this that have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about and you'll see by thier responses. It's like I'm speaking Chinese or something.

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 8:59am
Gr8gorilla,

Thanks for the compliment and thanks for aswering my question.
Pizpor
View Profile
Elite user
468 Posts

Profile of Pizpor
End 'big.'

If fruit from hat is as big as you can get, so be it.

I usually end my show with my Box of Doom. I like to end with someone from the audience sharing the stage with me, and who I can also direct all of the applause too.

If I have to do C&B's, for years I've been doing something like that David Williamson 2 cup routine he had in his book. Its evolved into more or less a run of gags rather than a display of technical prowess. Personally, I never really cared for the endless orange production because to me it seemed kind of obvious where all those oranges were coming from. I've also played around with some ideas that James Prince put out on dvd mainly because you analyze it, you don't need any stack moves. I can do the routine with soup cans, which really appeals to me character. I even played around with chopping one of the cans and using rubber mice instead of balls. That routine was all about not being able to catch this darn mouse living in my prop bag.

C&B's are ok as a middle effect, but for me, I'd rather end a show with a spectator on stage.
jimmy talksalot
View Profile
Special user
new orleans
757 Posts

Profile of jimmy talksalot
There are literally hundreds of thousands of tricks at our disposal as magicians in magic catalogs, but nope, we gotta do the cups and balls on the street and do it like gazzo.

there are literally thousands of slieght of hand moves done with any thing that can be held in your hand, but nope, gotta be those little balls under the cups and it has to be gazzo's way or your doin it wrong.

well not me fellahs, no friggin thanks.

and guess what, I know a bunch of guys who don't buy it either.

money guys don't care if we think they are untalented losers, because they are laughing all the way to the bank with our money.

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 9:20am
I've always loved your work pizpor, I'm sorry I'm venting, but I've have had this bundled up inside a long time.

there are a lot of super great guys, who work super hard on their acts like you do and I don't mean to offend any of them, believe me. all I'm sayin is if everyone is doing the cups, and "magicians" now are not creative enough to present it defferently.....or even know difference. why can't they do one of the literally millions of other tricks we have in books?

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 9:32am
Why can't a magician make his own routine with the cups. is it really that hard fellahs, isn't that what magicians make magic shows? friggin wow.

look if you can't put together a magic routine.....wow...try another hobby this one is to complicated for you.

the only magicians I ever met that couldn't put a cup routine together was street magicians, any indoor magician can do it.

lol, just kidding I know street magicians who do it, but there talented and creative....lol.

look at me I'm runnin through town shootin my gun off....ha ha.

stating the obvious about the eliphant in the room the money guys have been trying to hide.
Scotty Walsh
View Profile
Loyal user
Ireland
207 Posts

Profile of Scotty Walsh
I had a funny experience in Covent Garden a while back. I was walking through and saw a magician with the standard set up. Tray stand, table top, three cups, pouch, etc. And I just kept walking. Never thought I'd see the day where I wouldn't stop to watch a street magician. But I already knew the show. It's not really like people are imitating Gazzo. I've never seen anybody approach Gazzo's level of comical(?) nastiness. It's his final sequence that everyone is running into the ground.

I just think it is bad theory. Three loads you can do before anybody is aware of anything. You even have shade for the fourth, because of the appearance of the first. The hat is good because it provides lots of natural cover. But the fifth and sixth loads are fully exposed. The eye follows the movement. When I watch the Gazzo act, I try NOT to watch the loads. And I can't do it. And oranges are too big. The cups are too big. And I'm sure everyone says, "well it fools my audiences" or "it gets the money."

It's true some people miss everything. Williamson just dumped a bag of lemons on his table and some people thought they appeared magically. But I think crowds are being very polite and with some proper sleight-of-hand the trick can be so much better. It's like a super-sized cups and balls routine. Remember when Malini became a legend for getting rid of the pouch?

I'm only chiming in on this because I'm trying to get my 50 posts, and because I miss you, Jimmy.
ASCII
View Profile
New user
59 Posts

Profile of ASCII
Gazzo's routine is really strong that's why so many people do it.....and that's why I don't.
I was working a festival a few years ago and 3 people were doing the Gazzo routine, and one of them was Gazzo.

But the same thing can probably be said about the Vernon routine, probably the most copied routine ever.
so much in fact that most new magicians think your supposed to expose palming a ball and the false transfer when doing a cups and balls routine, and that's just the way its done. I never likes that part of it, but when Vernon did it it was a novelty and that phase was almost a parody of the cups and balls but when every body copied it the novelty is lost and it just becomes normal.

Not that what I came up with is 100% original mind you, because I still use the moves and ideas from the others who come before me.
mine has moves and ideas from Ammar, Williamson, Vernon, mallini, Paul daniels and Rafael benatar (who I think has one of the most underrated routine out there) what I did was read and watch every routine I could get my hands on, then I wrote down my Favorite parts, and the parts I don't like and built it from the ground up. and I would encourage anyone to try this, although it will take longer then learning a pre packaged routine it will help you in the long run.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Magicians can't make magic shows anymore, because of the cups? (3 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3..17~18~19 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.29 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL