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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
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On 2012-08-30 14:49, RobertSmith wrote: Nope, can't do it. There haven't been enough incidents to make a conclusion. But I've read of people doing stupid things with guns and I can't see that getting a lot better just because they're allowed to carry them concealed.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2012-08-30 15:28, Payne wrote: http://www.wisn.com/Customer-Stops-Groce......dex.html http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2865109/posts http://www.cardenchronicles.com/2009/01/......-by.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yqk-6KKM8 http://lubbockonline.com/stories/082705/nat_082705063.shtml http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6meBW1nzqys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gcFPjdwiI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zZGe3f0mc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTu_eS0pkY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_rz2wBYin4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkc8AJLRVJs&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4t1a_v9sG4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pPtbI5C4NY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEJOgX8v3w0&feature=relmfu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGOmtyTJ2f0&feature=related http://www.keepandbeararms.com/informati......?ID=1446 http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkouk......_in_utah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Midd......shooting http://old.post-gazette.com/forum/19990905edkelly6.asp http://www.volokh.com/posts/1212034090.shtml http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz4tOc1GLgo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1evT61Qp_Q&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWDK2F0v1J4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntk0n1Q5nMk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm-PD55URrY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o0CyqZ2D-g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaQsbdXQuZI&feature=related Ooooh one of my favorites. A COLLEGE STUDENT (off campus) defends himself with a firearm. Those crazy, irresponsible college students, I tell ya... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2wCZsGlg74&feature=relmfu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSiHuRvOe2g&feature=related What were you saying about gun owners using firearms to defend themselves? I don't want to discuss this again, Payne. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2012-08-30 22:14, ed rhodes wrote: Oh no no no. You don't get to change the argument. Your argument is that someone with a concealed weapon would make a shooting situation worse. YOU SHOW ME. You say there haven't been enough incidents to make a conclusion. No way, ed. You've made your conclusion. Am I hearing you push back from that conclusion now? |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Bob,
You presented enough evidence to prove your point to any reasonable person. Key words here "reasonable person". Payne and Ed do not fall into this category. Not sure what it is going to be but I am definitely looking forward to Payne's response. I would imagine it should contain a lot of phrases like, it does not matter, and that is not what I said, taking it out on context, picking an choosing what you want, along with you are twisting the facts, followed by a few hypothetical scenarios and on and on. And now a little PP. PP stands for "Post Payne". Post being a verb. Almost forgot...No telling what Ed will post.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2012-08-30 23:11, acesover wrote: You look forward to their responses. I don't care. |
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
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On 2012-08-30 23:04, RobertSmith wrote: No, I will not back down from the conclusion that some minimally trained person with a concealed weapon is more of a liability than an asset in a situation like the theater shooting. Now someone who has had training. REAL training in taking care of things in a stressful situation. THAT person I trust. But just applying for a license to carry doesn't make you that person.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2012-08-30 23:00, RobertSmith wrote: Odd, this appears to be a robbery, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s stories of several people who were injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.policeone.com/close-quarters-......olicies/ Odd, this appears to be an attempted kidnapping, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Man-shot-......599.html Odd, this appears to be using a bow and arrow and a fake gun not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Offi......165.html Odd, this appears to be another robbery, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Man-shot-......599.html Odd, this appears to be a case of domestic violence using a knife, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326148,00.html Odd, this appears to be a robbery where a dangerous 14 year old was shot, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://greaterlongbeach.com/09/12/2011/l......-suspect Odd, this appears to be a robbery with a knife, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/hea......liff.ece Odd, this appears to be another robbery, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30043893/ns/......hooting/ Odd, this appears to be yet another robbery, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/18948579/n......underway Odd, this appears to be another robbery, perhaps a home invasion not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_19508800 Odd, this appears to be still yet another robbery, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://articles.cnn.com/2010-07-07/justi......PM:CRIME Odd, this appears to be a robbery, not a rampage shooting. Colour me surprised. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://newsok.com/slain-norman-parole-of....../3677970 Odd, this appears to be a case of self defense, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/......1510369/ Odd, this appears to be another robbery, not a rampage shooting. You do know what a rampage shooting is don’t you? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.newser.com/story/145355/son-1......ing.html I’m shocked, this appears to be a robbery, not a rampage shooting. Shifting goal posts again are we? BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Orange-Co......193.html Trick article. Starts off with an article about a rampage shooting that was stopped by the police. But ends with yet another robbery tale. You really had my hopes up on this one. But you let me down. BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.oceancitytoday.net/news/2011-......ery.html Another guy with a knife, not a rampage shooting. This is getting to be rather disappointing. Surely someone out there has stopped a rampage shooting that wasn’t a police officer. BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun http://www.criminalattorneypa.com/2012/0......es.shtml Finally, a rampage shooting. That’s what I was asking for. Was that really so hard. BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/......1467500/ Very good, That’s two. You know if you had started with these you could have not subjected yourself to all this humiliation BTW here’s someone injured or killed with their own gun while trying to stop a crime http://www.ocregister.com/articles/rodri......ice.html Three, It’s taken a while but you got three. Maybe there is something to this gun thing after all. Too bad that you’re more likely to be killed with your own gun than a criminals http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17......led.html Article is too vague to call this a rampage shooting. Could have been a gang turf war. Hard to say. But it was stopped by a another guy with a gun. So a point to you Too bad the guy has a better chance of being killed by his own gun than he does of saving another room full of people. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=410374 And we’re back to self defense. I just love the title of this article http://arstechnica.com/science/2011/04/g......biguity/ You really should have quit while you were ahead Like this guy who was killed by his own sentry system http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPKJZggIq8s Another robber, another dufus killed with his own gun http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showth......-own-gun Once again, not a rampage shooting But someone killed with their own gun http://www.policeone.com/close-quarters-......tioning/ Another robber thwarted, But I was asking about stopping rampage shooters Oh, here’s another guy shot with his own gun http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/a......-weapon/ Finally, a rapist stopped. The only question is, was it going to be a legitimate rape Another person shot with their own gun http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2010/11/16/m......charges/ Odd, this appears to be a robbery, not a rampage shooting. HYou do realize that you made your case a while back? But just in case it hasn’t sunk in yet. Another person shot with their own gun http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/16/nyregi......gun.html Quote:
Oooh, one of my favorite, College student accidentally shoots himself in the head http://www.wftv.com/news/news/college-st......a/nJq3m/ friend of yours? What, do you collect these reports of people defending themselves with guns? I really was expecting more evidence that rampage shooters could be stopped by gun wielding citizens. Something you did show has happened on rare occasions. But still you’re more likely to be shot with your own weapon than you are during a crime http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crim......ory.html Quote:
I wasn’t saying anything about gun owners attempting to defend themselves with firearms. I was asking you to show me a single incident of a gun owner stopping a rampage shooter. Obviously I didn’t use words small enough so that you would understand the question as you buried the correct answers in the middle of your propaganda piece and then went back to pointing out robberies and such. Quote:
I don't want to discuss this again, Payne. No need to as you have far from proven your point that one is safer with a gun than without. As I’ve clearly showed. For every one of your wet dream cowboy fantasies about gun owners protecting themselves from evil doers. I’ve shown you an incident where the gun owner was killed or injured by their own firearm. I haven’t even touched on suicides, domestic violence elevated into gun crimes due to accessibility and children shooting themselves or others due to improper gun safety.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Payne,
When gunowners stop rampage shooters it does not make the news. They only report when the bad guy is successful. Besides if it was stopped how can you call it a rampage? That is like saying I put out a forest fire by myself when I extinguished my campfire. Now you know how silly some of your posts sound. Here is a simple question. If I can show you legitimage statstics where gunowners protect themselves along with others while stopping crimes such as rape and muggings and home entry from happening and do not injure themselves or others on average more than those without guns will you admit on this forum you are wrong? A simple yes or no will suffice.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-08-31 22:27, acesover wrote: The trouble is you can't. as I can find statistics that say just the opposite. That is the problem with statistics. I agree that crimes have been stopped by gun owners. I also agree that it is a constitutional right to own them. I also agree that no gun law will keep rampage shootings from happening. I just disagree with those who believe hat a higher percentage of gun ownership would prevent rampage shootings from happening or the "if only I had been there with my trusty gun none of this would happen" after the fact fantasies we hear so much of from the gun nuts after shootings like this take place. I respect those who take gun ownership as the great responsibility that it is and only wish that everyone was as sensible a gun owner as you and Robert seem to be. Unfortunately this is not the case which is why we end up with so many pointless and accidental shootings in this country. I was raised in the country and had gun safety classes in Jr. High. Something I thought everyone was exposed to in out educational system. I was surprised when I moved to an urban area and found out this wasn't part of the regular curriculum. I think as long as we have the rights to bear arms in this country then everyone should be exposed to some sport of gun safety training sometimes in their life. Gun ownership is a complex and emotional matter and there is no "right" answer as everyone has their own opinion on it and the studies to back them up. If people can't agree as to what exactly is meant by the wording in the constitution in regards to gun ownership there is little chance of finding common ground.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2012-09-01 01:30, Payne wrote: Perhaps the reason we don't see gun owners breaking up these mass shootings very often is that the majority of mass shootings in America take place in, "Gun Free Zones." You know, places where law abiding citizens, by nature of obeying the law, have left their guns either at home or locked in vehicles. The Luby's shooting in Kileen, TX is a perfect example of this. I don't think anyone can guarantee an armed citizen WILL make a difference. But only a fool could argue that it wouldn't at minimum change the odds. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-01 01:30, Payne wrote: I take that as your simple NO.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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But only a fool could argue that it wouldn't at minimum change the odds. No question. The discussion, however, is in which direction. My feeling is pretty unshakeable that in the NYC situation, firing of concealed weapons by civilians would have increased the wounded and death count.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2012-09-01 02:05, RobertSmith wrote: Yes, it does change the odds. The odds that someone will get shot. The problem is that there's no guarantee that it's going to be the bad guy.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Yes but what are the odds of the bad guy getting shot if none of the good guys have any guns?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2012-09-01 09:29, acesover wrote: If you can show me valid results from a reputible unbiased study that has been peer reviewed then yes, I'll admit that I was wrong.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You cant legislate safety or sanity.
It is unsafe and crazy to try.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I think DUI laws are a pretty good idea.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
As are speed limits, food and drug safety laws etc. I get Danny's point but it really is an over broad generalization. I agree with the classic rendering of the observation though- you can't legislate morality. (But that hasn't stopped some from trying.)
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I disagree thst you agree with the classic rendering; you're just construing it in a narrow sense. Taking tax money from people who have disproportionately more of it than others, and using it to give others health care coverage is certainly "legislating morality," for instance. The position that rich people "should" subsidize the healthcare of poor people (and/or middle class people) is a moral position. I agree with you in the sense that you're probably construing it, with respect to things like gambling, (some?) drugs, maybe prostitution, etc., but the fact of the matter is, everyone on this board (with the possible exception of GDW) wants to "legislate morality" in some fashion. The questions are which morality, and to what extent.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-01 12:41, Payne wrote: Probbly no such results can fulfill your requirements. No matter what the results you will say there is a flaw be it the reputible unbiased study, or wrong peer review. It is in impossible ttask Iset for myself and I would have to say that I could ask for the same results from you to show otherwise, and I am sure I could pick at apart. It is what we call a push, no winner. Everyone Have a Happy Labor Day. Hope we can get by the holiday without a shooting by some physco.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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