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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » Review: The Pain Game//Jon Allen (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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takeachance
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2015, T.G. Jones wrote:
Ouch!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mag......-6815924


I'd say this has been set up as a publicity stunt as that outcome is not possible with The Pain Game. Very clever publicity though.
T.G. Jones
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I'm not too sure. The x-ray makes it look as though he may have forgotten to 'do the business'.
itsmagic
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2015, T.G. Jones wrote:
I'm not too sure. The x-ray makes it look as though he may have forgotten to 'do the business'.


Or the spectator did something inside the bag while the magician was turned around asking the spec to mix up the bags!
supersteve691
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Kicking myself that I sold The Pain Game and recently spent $250 on Nailed It by Scott Alexander. Having both meant I could compare them properly and am convinced that Pain Game is the ultimate smash and stab. I can't recommend it highly enough.
Ypnoze
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Hi everyone

Any link for refill bags ?
takeachance
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Quote:
On Jan 2, 2016, itsmagic wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 12, 2015, T.G. Jones wrote:
I'm not too sure. The x-ray makes it look as though he may have forgotten to 'do the business'.


Or the spectator did something inside the bag while the magician was turned around asking the spec to mix up the bags!



No, you don't have to turn away as with other versions. The advantage to The Pain Game is you just ask them to name any bag/number and you smash it, leaving just one bag.
Doug Peters
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The Pain Game, while almost foolproof, is actually changing the original effect.

In the original effect, the performer "does not know" where the danger lies, but the audience does.
With Pain Game - it is necessary that the audience also has no knowledge of where the "danger" lies.
This requires a different bag-rearrangement altogether, and either one of two things can happen:
1. The audience tracks the rearrangement of the bags -- and the effect now becomes "how did the danger move?" (a significantly inferior effect)
2. The audience does not track the rearrangement -- and as a result is not as "invested" in the proceedings. What's more, the only way to keep the audience from tracking the rearrangement involves hiding the bags. This gives the audience a "plausible" -- though false -- "method", further reducing their "investment" in the whole procedure.
Bottom line: the Pain Game pretends to capture the "danger" (and its visceral reaction) of the original, but it fails to do so.
With the hiding of the bags as part of the rearrangement, the safety of the procedure is projected to the audience, who instinctively relax as a result.
That's not to say that it isn't a "good trick" -- just that it might not be getting the audience reactions you might have anticipated.
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
takeachance
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I use it for corporate lectures on personal responsibility (being very vague). No one knows why I'm crushing the bags they pick out as I'm speaking to them, until I finish the metaphoric point I want to get across to them and display the last bag they didn't choose. Without giving away my presentation, I can say I get a powerful reaction. But then, I have a totally different purpose and use for it than you Doug.
Doug Peters
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Ah: considering that you have also "changed the effect", you likely understand the weakness that I am highlighting.
I have no doubt that other presentations can get powerful reactions... just not in the same ballpark as the "true danger" original.
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Jon Allen
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Hi Doug,

You are mixing up the 'effect; with the 'presentation'.

The effect of every Russian Roulette is the same: avoid the dangerous thing.

The presentation is what varies between them. The Pain Game was the first to have it that neither the performer nor the audience knows where the dangerous thing is. This in no way lessens the effect because everyone knows that hidden in one of the bags is a sharp nail. When the audience knows where the dangerous thing is, the performer cannot hover over another bag/cup because the audience knows it is safe. Each slam must be a quick decision. This nap decision-making can actually add to the chance of getting it wrong. With The Pain Game, the performer can hold their hand over the bag and wait... and build the tension.

The audience absolutely does not relax. If they ever do then it is the fault of the performer not creating the right atmosphere.

If you watch Derren Brown's latest show, you will see just how effective the routine can be and how invested the audience are in his safety.
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more.
Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Doug Peters
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I thought Shattered pre-dated Pain Game? Shattered also has "it that neither the performer nor the audience knows where the dangerous thing is".
And this lack of knowledge on the part of the audience changes the effect. In order to ensure that the audience does not know where the danger lies, it is necessary to at least obscure the bags from their sight. While good presentation can help mitigate the loss of effect under these conditions, if you think that there is no relative relaxation compared to the original, you're fooling yourself.
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Jon Allen
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You are correct in that Shattered pre-dates The Pain Game. My apologies.

What is the effect if you feel it has changed from 'performer has to avoid the sharp object'?
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more.
Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Doug Peters
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As you appreciate, the effect "performer avoids injury" includes the bullet catch.
But I'm sure we agree that the bullet catch and Pain Game are different effects.

The thing about Pain Game (and its ilk) is that it can't avoid the fact that the audience must not know where the danger is. And it is impossible to eliminate that knowledge without raising doubts about the legitimacy of the danger itself.

The fact that the audience has knowledge in one case and does not have that knowledge in the other represents a change in the effect in the minds of the audience.
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Jon Allen
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The effect is 'performer avoids the dangerous object', not 'performer avoids injury'. There is a huge difference.

The audience not knowing where the sharp object is in no way affects the effect.

If you feel the effect changes from 'performer avoids the dangerous object' simply because neither the audience nor the performer knows where it is, then what do you think is the different effect?
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more.
Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Doug Peters
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You put a bullet in one of the chambers of a revolver and spin the chamber.
The magician puts the revolver to his head and pulls the trigger: *click*.
You spin again, and another *click*. This is repeated another three times.
Finally, the revolver is opened and the bullet drops out.

Sounds like "performer avoids the dangerous object", doesn't it?
But it is a different effect.
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Jon Allen
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You mentioned the 'bullet catch' but what you have now described is Russian Roulette. You were confusing two effects.

The one you described in detail is a Russian Roulette - where the performer avoids the dangerous object. In the case you described, that's a bullet.

Whether you avoid a bullet or avoid a nail, it is the same effect.

If you feel that avoiding a bullet amongst safe chambers is a different effect to avoiding a nail amongst safe bags then so be it.

The effect does not change either just because the audience does not know where the dangerous object is. Only the presentation does.
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more.
Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Doug Peters
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There was no confusion. Since you insisted that there is a "huge difference" between the bullet catch and Pain Game, I gave you another example.

Let's try again.
Effect#1: a card stab in which the performer scatters cards on a table and then covers them with a newspaper... selection stabbed through newspaper.
Effect#2: a card stab in which a spectator scatters cards on the table, knowing where a selection is while the performer's back is turned... selection stabbed without cover.

If you consider these the "same effect, but different presentations", then so be it.

Or another example: someone earlier on this thread performed Pain Game without any mention of danger at all until a nail was removed from a last uncrushed bag.
Was this a change of effect? Or was it a mere change of presentation?
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Jon Allen
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Doug, a bullet catch is where the magician attempts to catch a signed bullet in his/her mouth. When you use it to described a Russian Roulette, you can see how people get confused.

The effect in the first example is that the magician finds a chosen card by stabbing it wit a knife.

The effect in the second example is that the magician finds a chosen card by stabbing it with a knife.


When the audience don't see the nail, the premise and the présentation change. The effect is still one of the magician avoiding the dangerous object.
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more.
Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Doug Peters
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Why isn't the card effect simply "the magician finds a chosen card"? ;-)
Why did you choose to add qualifiers (i.e., "with a knife/rapier on the table/in the air") in the context of the card stab,
but choose not to add qualifiers (i.e., "when nobody/everybody knew where the bullet/knife/broken bottle was") in the context of Russian Roulette?
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
Doug Peters
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Btw, I'll grant that the way I wrote the two entries, it looks confusing between Bullet Catch and Russian Roulette.
But when I wrote the second, I was thinking "OK, you don't like Bullet Catch as an example, how about Russian Roulette".
I should have written that to make it clear.
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
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