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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
This subject was commented on another thread but I can’t find it because it was off subject, but I want to make a comment anyway because I disagreed with some of the comments. In my opinion, the one language rule on a poker table is an important rule and that is why all major card rooms and tournaments have that rule and the good ones definitely enforce it.
One can theoretically discuss the fact that people can collude in many ways and if they want to they will, but that is not the question here. What is involved is possible soft collusion. Soft collusion is when two or more people “casually” help each other in a poker game but do not prearrange they will do so. In other words, let’s say two foreign speaking parties have not prearranged that they will cheat the game or collude. Instead they either know each other or can relate because they are of the same race or ethnic background. In any event, they speak the same foreign language and such language is not understood by the other players at the table. In poker, the rule is -- one player, one hand -- meaning the player cannot get help on the hand from another player. That is pretty much universal in professional games. I am sure poker players can relate to this, especially serious poker players. When you have your money on the line and if you are in a big pot against two foreign speaking opponents, how would you feel if they exchanged a quick remark in a foreign language at a crucial moment and you ended up losing the pot to one of them? Would you be upset? Would you feel that maybe that remark may have cost you the pot, rightly or wrongly? Maybe the person who beat you would have dropped out if it was not for the “suggestion” he received in a foreign language, that is if he received a suggestion at all. How would you know? What if one of them dropped out of the hand after the quick remark? Would you wonder if they said something that prevented you from winning against both of them if you won the pot? It only takes a word or two to make a difference. I can give many examples of this being a very suspect or awkward situation. The fact is, the rule prevents this, or at least minimizes the possibility. Soft collusion, although it is not prearranged, IS NOT innocuous. It occurs from time to time among friends in the smaller games. A little courtesy here and there when both friends are involved in the pot together and they take it easy on each other. I have seen this happen in tournaments, even large tournaments, between two friends or relatives, but it is cheating because it may prevent one of them from getting knocked out of the tournament and reducing the number of players remaining, which can hurt the others. I don’t believe that any experienced poker player who plays for serious money would argue against the one language rule. In multi-language areas, one language should be used on a specific game. In Canada for example, the game could be dealt in either French or English, but not both. Theoretical conclusions which argue against this rule are based upon a premise which may or may not be valid. In the real world, I am a serious player and if my money is on the line the rule WILL be enforced – absolutely guaranteed - or you would you would hear me screaming from Vegas to New York without me leaving the “joint.” (That is another reason the rule is enforced. New York City complained about my screaming?) Seriously though, I think it is an important rule and I believe most, if not all, good players would agree. |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Cag,
I can confirm your post. Dozen of times I have witnessed soft collusion, as you call it (as a non English speaking native, I'd call it unforced or automatic collusion). For example, the very classic case is when regulars are at the same table and one "stranger" is there. The guy is not necessarily a foreigner, he's just a new player. Needless to speak to each other before, when the new one is involved with two regulars one of them just folds. Needless to say that when the "stranger" is a show-off, the whole table plays automatically against him . The beauty of this is that I have seen players who could not stand each other occasionally soft colluding or teaming up against such newcomers. I'd bet they did not even notice. About languages, I can myself use several languages at the tables. It's more than funny. That said, in England there is always an Italian, a Spanish or a Frenchman creeping around... |
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the dealer Regular user las vegas 188 Posts |
Completely agree with the one language rule all the way. I dealt in a card room where English only was enforced, it's funny how foreigners got upset and even mad at me when I enforced our English only rule. Many a times I've had to call floor over and even got a fair amount of people kicked out for the day because of speaking a foreign language...."dealer I'm not even in a hand"...they would say. Oh well
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
I don't like the rule, if nothing else just because it creates an unfriendly environment at the table. At least this is my experience, and the rule has little or no relation to "soft collusion". Perhaps with one exception, I have seen soft collusion occur immediately after someone is an ass about it and demands people to speak English even if the game is in, say France or Bulgaria.
It seems to me that it is often (as mentioned above) considered as the "English only" rule, which makes no sense in most countries in the world. The way I see it the rule has more to do with the perception of foul play, than actual foul play. Myself I prefer the golden rule: the one with the gold, makes the rules. If he wants to speak Hindi, I'm not only up for it, but I darned well learn a phrase or two. / |
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-11 18:10, Cagliostro wrote: It certainly might be the case in the US and Canada, however, most games in Europe (less so in England) more often than not have two languages going. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-01 22:24, Stromberg wrote: The one language rule means that everyone at the table understands what is being said. If two languages are in common use, then everyone either understands what is being said, or enough people at the table understand so that "unfair" statements will be stopped. If not, the game is beign run poorly and perhaps many foreign games are run poorly. I can't comment on how games are run all over the world. I can only comment on the professionally run games in the US. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I can't speak from any experience of online poker as I never play it but the general rule re "English Only”seems to be the following:
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/site-terms Quote: 11. All conversation at an active ring game or tournament table must be conducted in English except in country specific tournaments, where players and observers may chat in English or the primary language of that country (e.g. in tournaments limited to players in Germany, players may chat in German or English). Only chat in English and the primary language of that country are permitted in such tournaments. In all other cases, chat is limited specifically to English. Any other chat in languages besides English may result in the suspension of a user’s chat privileges. When in Rome do as the Romans
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-01 22:15, Stromberg wrote: The only thing I can agree with you on is that it definitely creates an unfriendly enviorment at the table. It makes no difference if colusion is involved or not. Why not whisper in each others ear? Same result. Same conclusions formed by the other players at the table. There are just to many resons to list as to why it should not be done. If you play you should understand and no explanation should be necessary.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
The rule is even more stupid in online games, as there are both stronger ways of cheating and detecting cheating than chatting in a foreign language. For online sites it has more to do with the APPEARANCE of collusion than any actual danger. Most people aren't stupid enough to use chat but rather use online services such as Skype or even a traditional phone.
As regards multiple languages in Europe, I can only vouch for medium to high stakes games, and especially on the high end they are certainly well run. The language is not an issue, and I fully contend that it is a mistake to think that the language rule has any positive effect as regards the integrity of the games. This is my experience though, and yes, I mainly have experience from the Europe and Asia. I think the language rule is not only a red herring, but something that actually impedes on what is more important than anything: keep fish happy. /Stromberg |
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griffindance Regular user 145 Posts |
Collusion is, okay, bad. Impossible to enforce though. Even if everyone speaks the same language you cant stop the collusion. For example a friend of mine and I whilst surrounded by Brits and Americans could speak quite loudly and privately using a common slang. Still english but no-one else in the room could follow us.
If you don't feel comfortable at a table don't put you money on the table. |
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LOUIEL New user 81 Posts |
Cag, you're right this stuff happens ALOT in money games, but it is to be expected when people play for money.
EVERYONE IS LOOKING FOR THE BEST OF IT!! It depends on all the different gestures, mannerisms, even a different language, if followed closely by their body language and tells which is an art in itself when mastered, these players can be defeated I . love playing with these types of players who think they're smart and clever, they raise re raise bs, different language or hand signals, I bust them with a great hand or pockets, ALL IN sometimes works depending on my hand, they'll run, or I'll use a different approach. Amarillo slim said it best... I don't look for a sucker, I look for a professional and make a sucker out of him. Great thread! Louie L |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
In England in live games "English Only” is the rule. I have played in other countries and their native tongue is permitted and I have never been told I can not speak English in these other countries but I am not sure what the rule was in actual fact. I have a dealer who is not here at the moment but she deals poker all over the world, she would know. The dealer I refer to goes on cruise ships and deals on them and stays in countries and deals there also. She speaks a number of languages and she the best dealer we have. Birds of a feather stick together as they say and its only natural that the Greeks will help each other and so on it seems to me. During the hands it's "English Only” here in England in live games. The talk between hands though can be interesting and I wish I could understand Greek in particular.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-02 09:07, Stromberg wrote: If that is your thoughts on it all I can say is that you are not a player. I have been playing poker for over 50 years and serious poker for over 30 years and it is not allowed to tell other people what to do in any language. If done the personis warned and the second time they are out of the game. Also if you know me from these forums you will know that I own 3 pool rooms and run games in them and one of the games is fairly high stakes and it is not allowed. End of story. One hand one player. No if I were you or any other goofy remarks. Like I said one warning then you are out. If it is a cash game you cash out and leave. If a tournament on the second warning you are out and forefit your buy in and your chips are blinded out. It does not have to have anything to do with cheating. It is influncing the play of the hand, which can get some individuals very upset. That is why I say if you think the way you do you are not a serious player.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
@ acesover
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here. Telling other players what to do is a rule that must be abided to and has nothing to do with the language rule. The language rule has to do with what language is spoken at the table. I.e. two Swedish people are not allowed to speak Swedish with each other if the table has an "English only rule". |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
It is not poker ruleas as such but rather it is an “house” rule. If the “house” rule at the table in question is “English Only” then that is that. If it's your game then you say Dutch Only if you like. No one makes one join the game.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
I was thinking that maybe a concrete example of what I am talking about might clarify my position.
This incident happened just over a year ago when I was playing £5/£10 PLO at the Vic in London. Two middle eastern gentlemen were the big contributors in the game, and chatted away inbetween hands in their native tongue. Then one guy gets ****ed off (I think the main reason was that he had lost a big pot), and decides to demand that the language rule be implemented (English only). Rather than continue playing the middle east gentlemen just left the table and decided to play at the high stakes roulette table instead where they obviously was allowed to speak whatever language they wanted. Good for the casino, sure. But the rest of us? I can tell you I rather play with two big contributors like that no matter what language they speak rather than have them gamble away their money to the casino. Anyhow, it is a clear example of why I think the rule is silly, the only thing it did was to move two big fish away from what was a very lucrative situation for most other players at the table. I hope it clarifies where I'm coming from regarding this issue. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-03 13:39, Stromberg wrote: I know what you are saying. But if two people are talking in a language that no one at the table understands and one of those people is involved in a hand there is goind to be a problem. That is why I say it does not even have to do with cheating but rather using a language or signs between two people at a table if they are involved in a hand just does not fly in any game I have ever played in. It has nothing to do with house rules, it is poker ediquette and and I have never seen it violated without those involved being warned. However if house rules are that you can aid another player in making his decision when in a hand then I guess it is OK, but I never heard of such a game nor would I or anyone I know play in such a game. I understnd your example about the Swedes above but if two people are in a hand and no one at the table understands mandrin and they start to converse...are you saying that is allowed? If so as I said before I never heard of such a thing, house rules or no house rules English only or whatever. Even worse if several people in the hand and before someone bets he starts to converse with someone who only those two understnd what is being said and makes a bet, do you believe that is OK? Then suppose the other person either raises or folds. Now what? I don't careif they are talking abaout their grandkids...no one else knows that. Do you see the problem?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
I do see the problem and it is obviously time to become suspicious if the word "card" is mentioned AND the players are talking during the hand. The purpose of the rule is to remove soft collusion and insure the integrity of the game. It is a worthy rule if it works.
I think there is a slight difference in perspective between someone running a game, he wants to ensure that the appearance of integrity is upheld. However, for a player such as myself, the biggest issue I have is that the rule creates situations which costs me money. In my experience the language rule has no or little actual use other than upsetting people. My point is that the rule is not what ensures the integrity of the game, in fact, it can often be used as a way of scaring fish away (as my example above tried to show). I argue the integrity of the game is better ensured by other means than that rule, thus I contend that the rule is somewhat of a red herring. Personally, I have never seen the rule implemented when it had a good effect. In fact, every single time someone have implemented, or tried to implement it, it has made the game less lucrative. I don't like the rule for the simple reason that for me winning more money is more important than understanding what people are saying. When it comes to soft collusion, a lot of people don't know or understand why it is bad. But explaining things, like why you shouldn't discuss a hand while other players are still in it, in a calm and friendly manner will go a very long way. Let me put it as extreme as I can: even if I know - with 100% certainty - that two people are discussing with each other exactly what they are going to do (soft collusion), _if I still have the best of it_ I am certainly not going to invoke the language rule if it stops them from handing their money over to me in the game. In the end, if you feel uncomfortable you can always walk away. Invoking the rule and upsetting people will not create a more secure environment for you, in fact, the chance of soft collusion will increase. In those cases, walk away - unless you are the sucker at the table, I am sure nobody will mind. So, I do understand your point. I do understand the idea behind the rule. But for me, it is more important to win money than any rule. Furthermore, I want people to be happy to lose money to me, I want them to invite me to their games again, I want them to seek me out if we are in the same casino or club. For this reason, I will not ever invoke the language rule whether or not it exist at that particular game. As I said earlier, if they want to speak Hindi, I'm not only going to let them speak as much as they want, I am also going to learn a phrase or two in order to create a friendly and comfortable environment where losing money is irrelevant to them because they have such a good time. / |
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Stromberg Regular user 160 Posts |
Footnote 1: One player to a hand, is a rule I certainly agree with. Although it can be related to the language rule, it is not the issue I am trying to discuss. Please do not misunderstand me as questioning "one player to a hand".
Footnote 2: what I wrote in the above post is the main reason I know a couple of phrases of Chinese. |
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the dealer Regular user las vegas 188 Posts |
Quote:
I think the language rule is not only a red herring, but something that actually impedes on what is more important than anything: keep fish happy. so that I understand you. you mean to say that if you were sitting at a poker table and you were involved in a hand, and another player and I were speaking in a foreing language(regardless if we were currently involved in the hand or not because it does not matter) you would not say a single thing to the dealer or the floor? if that is the case, and don't take this personally, I would love for you to sit in a game where I can speak whatever language I want. |
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