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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Bound to please vs Tamariz (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicman491
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Okay, so I want to learn the aronson stack. And I'm wondering if I should buy his book bound to please to learn stack, then buy Tamarizs book for effects.
Or should I just learn aronsons stack on his website. Does he have some handy tips in his book which is worth buying it or should I just get Tamarizs book and learn the stack online?
Thanks
Eric Richardson
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Bound to Please has his mnemonic system and tons of information on the built in features of his stack. You can't go wrong getting it. Also check out his free ebook available at his site and vanishingincmagic.com. It is great and free! I think Mnemonica is also worth your serious study.
SIX
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Uli Weigel
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If you're serious about mem deck work, the answer is easy: buy both and don't forget to buy Aronson's other books as well. Sooner or later you'll want to read them anyway.
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2012-09-12 10:35, Uli Weigel wrote:
If you're serious about mem deck work, the answer is easy: buy both and don't forget to buy Aronson's other books as well. Sooner or later you'll want to read them anyway.


This. Smile
JanForster
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Yes! To be honest, I've them all and studied as well, Aronson and Tamariz. And I've a favorite: "Simply Simon" Smile. Jan
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panlives
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Quote:
On 2012-09-12 11:01, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-09-12 10:35, Uli Weigel wrote:
If you're serious about mem deck work, the answer is easy: buy both and don't forget to buy Aronson's other books as well. Sooner or later you'll want to read them anyway.


This. Smile


+2
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magicman491
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Which one should I start with... I don't really want Simon's 'effects'... I just want his stack WITH Tamariz's effects...
Is simons book worth buying JUST for the stack... or should I just learn with the stack quizzer online? Eric Richardson is his mnemonic system really that helpful?
Thanks
baobow
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Out of respect for Simon, you should be buying his book if you are gonna learn his stack. He is one of the pioneers of stack work and some of his effects are some of the most devious and powerful that you could do with a stack deck, 'Past, Present, and Future', Everybody's Lazy, Histed Hiested, Fate, his approach the Birthday Diary Plot, Two Beginnings. I am in awe of the thought that would have gone into devising these effects and the mathematics required come up with these solutions is mind boggling.

If you are only looking to buy Juan's book, why not just learn his stack?
MagicJuggler
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The mnemonic system is helpful when you have a mental jam and you have to try to remember a card. Even when you have a stack cold this can happen, especially if you're tired. So instead of just having a number=card, you can remember the mnemonic and it will automatically remind you of the correct card. Also, don't write off Aronson's book just because you have a preference for Tamariz's book, there's a lot of really valuable information and great routines. Histed Heisted being one of the great tricks done with a mem deck. There's also a version of shuffle board using a memdeck that allows you to have two selections as well, so after the shuffles you can not only acurately state the number of face up cards, but quickly discover the identities of both selections using a clever principle that's inherent with the effect.

Though with the mnemonic system I did have a small issue transitioning from the mnemonic to the direct recall of stack numbers. The way I got around this was by playing a simplified version of solitare using the stack numbers instead of card values. After playing that for a while I got very good at instant recall of the stack.

But I agree with the reccomendations above: GET BOTH.
Matthew Olsen

www.mattolsenmagic.com




I heard from a friend that anecdotal evidence is actually quite reliable.
BarryFernelius
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Yes, buy both books. Oddly enough, you could easily use Tamariz's memorization techniques to master Aronson's stack.

Why have you decided that Aronson's stack is the one that you want to memorize?
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."

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Eric Richardson
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A mnemonic system can be helpful and my understanding is that Simon's system is more than adequate. I can't speak from experience because I memorized the Aronson stack by creating flash cards with an old deck. Juan's system is cool and I am sure it works well too.
Dennis Loomis
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I can't imagine why you don't want Simon's effects. They are widely diverse in nature and include some absolutely killer stuff. As does Mnemonica. I am well aware that some folks have criticised the original built in effects in Simon's stack as being top heavy with poker routines. While that may be true, in his books are a plethora of other routines from fairly lengthy sophisticated stuff to very short killer routines. (I love Take Two, for example, and it can be done in a minute or so. Its in the Reciprocal Spell Pairs section of Try the Impossible on page 254.)

As my friend Doug Dyment is fond of pointing out, people vary considerably in how they memorize things. It's possible that mnemonics may not be the best approach for you. Although you won't know that if you don't try it. The Tamariz learning techniques are more varied and may or may not be effective for you as well.

I do want to differ with MagicJuggler. Mnemonics are just a "Learning" tool. They are not meant to stay in your mind. The same is true of whatever technique you use. Ultimately you should just "know" that the 28th card is the Seven of Clubs, etc. Falling back on the original mnemonics is going to slow you down and your thinking will be showing. A definite no-no in mem-deck work. Not to insult anyone, but if you are trying to perform with a mem-deck and you are still using the original learning tools, you are not yet ready. You have to get to the point where the stack numbers come to mind immediately when you think of any card, and the reverse.

That said, theres some good news about Simon's Books and Juan's Mnemonica. There are many effects which are based on the stack, but which can be done even if you don't have the stack memorized.

So my recommendation is that over time you should buy and study everything that you can get your hands on. Eric Richardson modestly did not plug his book "Oasis." But if you want to work with the Aronson stack and you don't have it, you're missing out on some great magic. The story routine "Southside Johnny" is a killer piece of magical entertainment. You don't have to have the stack memorized to do it, but you will have to learn the story. If you do, it will be a big help in learning the order of the cards in the Aronson stack. (That's a different process, by the way, from learning the stack numbers. A mem-deck worker needs to know both.)

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
JanForster
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I really do not get the point to say I want the Aronson Stack, not his effects but Tamariz' effects. Do you know something about his effects? I will add also "Twice as Hard" and "Four Part Harmony". Jan
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Eric Richardson
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One of the interesting things about all the poker deals, etc. built into the Aronson stack is that they create useful patterns and possibilities. These intricate patterns run deep and can be used in many ways that have nothing at all to do with poker and bridge deals!

Simon has created some of the most powerful memorized deck effects ever created. They can be used with ANY memorized stack. Simon is mentioned all over Mnemonica. Juan also had him write the introduction to the book! Studying both men's work is the best thing you can do as you begin (and continue) your new adventure with the stack you choose.

Best,
Eric
pnielan
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Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
pnielan
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Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
pnielan
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Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
pnielan
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Northern California
151 Posts

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Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
pnielan
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Northern California
151 Posts

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Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
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