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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2012-11-03 21:12, JasonEngland wrote: Jason, There is nothing you have said here that I do not agree with. Thanks for a very sensible and meaningful post and not argueing but rather discussing. Knowing any little bit that the opponent does not know is always a good thing that may help you in the hand. Knowing that one of the eight cards to come is a huge advantage if you need it say to make three of a kind. There are certainly other advantages to this, saying it is a card that helps your oponent. I am only pointing out that any of these senarios are not very likely to occur in a game esspecially if it is a player dealer situation which means you can know thie info only once around the table and then the conditions have to fall into place. I am sure you can see that it is highly unlikely it will be of value very often and possibly not even occur in a paticular game. If the gam has a dealer and you know it every hand that is a different matter entirely, but conditions still have to be met for it to be of any great value. Obviously if you have a pair to the card you know, you have to see the flop and and if you miss the flop and the betting is not high see the turn and river depending on the quality of the board. But to put your tournament life on the line of hoping it comes after the flop is dubious at best unless you are estremely short stacked and in dire need of the pot. There are other conditions but we are now getting into poker stragedy as opposed to cheating. I will repeat as I have done several times. I do not "cheat" at poker. So this is realy a moot point for me because I would never use it. Most of the time when you will know one of the 8 cards that information will turn out to be useless. Just run it through your mind and think of when it is valuable and whenit isn't. That is all I am saying. I do not feel it is an advantage that would put me in the money. It could happen but I can also hit the lottery.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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kris knave New user 13 Posts |
Whilst I'm not getting into bickering about it, this would obviously not be a tournament strategy and it definiely is a worthwhile cash game strategy for a house dealer to flash a board card to an agent, especially in Omaha games. Also, it's worth pointing out that this is the kind of play that would be introduced into a game in which you already have an edge, this would not be a table turner, it would be a variance reducing/edge enhancing strategy.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On 2012-11-04 08:17, acesover wrote: Just out of curiosity and without revisiting the previous conversations or taking sides on this, I have two questions for Acesover. Let’s say that you are in an “everyone deals for himself” game and one of the players inadvertently exposes the bottom three cards or sloppily does not shuffle the bottom three cards perhaps because he uses an “in the hands” shuffle. Let’s say for the sake of discussion these three cards are the 3 of Hearts, 4 of Diamonds and 8 of Spades. These three cards are in sequence and not separated. Keep in mind the deck is fairly shuffled and fairly cut. No one is cheating. The dealer is just not a picture perfect shuffler. In a no-limit or tournament Hold’em game you receive two cards, the 8 of Hearts and 8 of clubs. Three players enter the pot for the minimum bet and you decide to limp in with your two 8s. The flop comes 7 of Spades, 2 of Diamonds and 3 of Hearts. Because the 3 of Hearts is the last card exposed on the Flop, you know with certainly that the next burn card has to be the 4 of Diamonds and the Turn card will be the 8 of Spades which will give you a set of Eights. One of the players makes a very big bet, say four times the pot. Everyone else drops out of the pot. You know from experience that the best this player could possibly have is set of 7s, 2s or 3s. Ordinarily you would fold your hand at this point but since you know with certainty, because of this additional information known to you that you will make a set of Eights on the Turn, here are two questions: 1. Would you call the bet based upon this "insider" information – information known only to you? 2. If you called the bet, would you consider yourself to be cheating, or would you fold the hand feeling that you were taking unfair advantage of your opponent if you played it out and got the three 8s with certainty.? |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2012-11-04 14:30, Cagliostro wrote: Good questions. But multiple answers. First off this has occured a few times at our weekly games (no necessairly 3 cards flashiing and then the senario you set up but flashing cards yes) and honestly I can say that several players said before the deal even started that the cards have been flashed and rerdeal. I would hope all of us would do that at this game but I cannot be sure. However that does not answer your question copletely. In our weekly games I would not let it get that far and mention that the cards have been flashed and could very possibly come into play so put a stop to it before the initial deal was made. However if I was in a game at a casino and saw the cards or a game where I did not know the players as I do in our weekly games I would count that as being observant and would not consider it cheating also I could not be sure that I was the only one who saw this so I would play the hand out knowiing the eight was coming and play accordingly. Just as an obersvation in your rexample if he flopped 3 of a kind I feel he over bet the hand as it flopped rainbow and I would think he would bet maybe double the blind and hope for a few callers who made top pair or with luck hit two pair. Howevere that is besides the point. As I said the only way for this to happen to me would be at a casino or a game where I was playing with strangers and I would do my best to make as much as I could on the hand. Ha ha I just hope he rivers a full house. Then I take all of his chips.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2012-11-04 14:01, kris knave wrote: What you mention in your posot is not really the actual topic as we are saying knowing one of the eight cards to come, not positively knowiing one of the board cards in play. Actually knowing one of the board crds for sure is quite a huge advantage much larger of an advantage that what we are discussing.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
There are lots of things that are more of an advantage but the question is, can you do them, safely, in a formal cash game? Bearing in mind that if you get nailed, that would put you at a disadvantage.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Acesover,
I'm not sure that I'd bet my whole tournament life on this move either, unless I was short-stacked and way just trying to make a last stand. But who said anything about tournaments? This idea may not flourish in that environment but could be advantageous in another. Also, just because something doesn't come up very often doesn't mean it isn't valuable. You don't find yourself looking at pocket Aces while your opponent is looking at pocket Kings very often either, but when you do it's a huge payoff (statistically). The original point was that knowing a specific card is going to hit the board 5 times out of 8 is a nice thing to have going for you, even if you don't always wind up capitalizing on, or profiting from, that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, this isn't the best thing since sliced bread and there are a lot of moves that are much stronger. It's just a small thing that would infrequently help you either get off a hand or make a nice set/straight/flush. But hey, it's something! Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On 2012-11-04 20:31, JasonEngland wrote: Aabsoutely. Any edge is good.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Perhaps the easy rough way to think of the Out edge of knowing 1 of 8 is as an extra:
F40% : T20% : R20% : TR40%
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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