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iamslow
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Nope...
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-09-16 06:23, iamslow wrote: Our chips have been counterfited already... the reason why they found out was the conterfeits were better made....

I was playing the count one day in about 1970 in Harold’s Club in Reno and my playing sweep through the Lake Tahoe and Reno area. I did not pay any attention to the other games as I spend most of my time laying BJ. As I walked by the craps table, I saw there was a lot of green check action (green checks usually denote $25 chips in Nevada). I did not think much of it at the time but the story enfolds further.

Several months later, a dealer at the recently opened International Hotel in Las Vegas, who also worked on the side for the Griffin Detective Agency, went to the casino manager and said their $25 chips were counterfeit. He said there was something “different” about the chips.

Management consulted with the manufacturer and they said the chips were legitimate. Still the Griffin Agent dealer maintained there was something wrong with the checks. The insert had a slightly different texture from the other chips when flashed against the light.

The final outcome was most amusing, but not for the International Hotel. Seems like the manufacturer made exactly the same chip for two joints, Harold’s Club in Reno and the International Hotel in Vegas. The only difference was the insert. For Harold’s Club the insert said the chips were worth 25 cents each, for the International, the insert said the chips were worth $25 each.

So……what happened is some enterprising hustlers saw that the 25 cent chips at Harold’s were the same chips as the International’s except for the insert. So the hustlers simply acquired a great many 25 cent chips from Harold’s and put their newly made $25 International inserts into the chips. Eventually the International realized that that had a super abundant of $25 chips, many of which had inserts with slightly different texture. Communication with the manufacturer finally revealed that the manufacturer had sent the same composition chips to two casinos, both with different monetary values. At that point, The International changed all their $25 chips.

The lesson for me was to make sure I check out ALL the games because I have found out that it is amazing what you will pick up on even on a casual walk through.

Hmmm……..I wonder if AMcD/s computer programs would have detected this play. Oh, just joking AMcD. Smile
tommy
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"YES, but anything that falls outside normal procedures isn't a viable advantage play to start with, right?"

It seems to me, that is not quite right. In reality most “cheating” such as bottom dealing - rather than “advantage play” such as card counting - falls outside the normal procedures of the game. What we have in cheating, by and large, is counterfeit. The bottom deal is a counterfeit of a the top deal and so on. That, in reality, a counterfeit is never perfect.

A bank teller is no expert on counterfeit bank notes but is an expert on the real thing. Thus the bank teller instantly can tell when he comes across a counterfeit bank note. One might say the bank teller has been “programmed” by his years of experience handling real bank notes day in and out. Also a counterfeit detection machine are used in banks which detect by knowing what is real and rejecting everything else. That, I think, is the same in principle as what happens in a casino's. Both the people and machines in the casino are programmed to spot the real deal and if it does not seem quite right an so there is or maybe something wrong, perhaps.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Dowser
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Canada
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Quote:
On 2012-09-15 17:36, NFS wrote:
Here's how one guy beat the RFID chips: He sewed a stack of high denomination chips into his pant leg at his knee to play blackjack at a well established, well known Vegas casino. Whenever the count was low he'd raise his knee to the bottom of the table so the sensor for the RFID chips would detect his table bet PLUS the amount sewn to his knee. Whenver the count was high he'd lower his knee to not be detected by the sensor, but make a bet near the table max. According to the latest-and-greatest card counting technology of today courtesy of RFID technology, he appeared to be flatbetting the maximum, but ACTUALLY playing with a near 1-300 spread! The pit bosses and other personnel were asleep knowing their system would alert them if anything was happening. To make things even better the player received all the promotions one would get for being an apparent flatbetter at table max.

This is an interesting idea, but it sounds like a pipe dream. How was this patron caught? Or is this one of those "a guy I know" stories?
Despite his typical over zealous reaction, I have to agree with Amcd about calling this particular scenario as B.S.
Eventually, this kind of play WOULD have been flagged. If the table is able to read the bets, it should also be able to read the tray. The win/loss on this big better would not Jive with the chips in the tray and the investigation into why would begin.
AMcD
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I was talking about detecting counting schemes, betting patterns, teams strategy, etc. Not counterfeited checks, lol.

Don't worry Cag, you can make the fun out of me as much as you like, there's no problem with guys like you.

I have a question though. RFID chips use individual IDs. It's is absolutely possible to use unbreakable algorithms in order to produce serial numbers and encrypting them. You need to use very hard to break algorithms to identified them. You counterfeit an RFID chip? So what? What a big deal! You don't know how those serials are generated, encrypted and checked by the casino! I don't clearly see how such a counterfeited chip could be used, it should be detected as wrong the split second it appears on the mat. So, whether casino procedure are crap (RFID items are snake oil) whether someone has access to the ins and outs of the software handling them...

What is your guess? See, I can be on Dowser's side once in a while.
NFS
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Quote:
On 2012-09-16 13:07, The Dowser wrote:
This is an interesting idea, but it sounds like a pipe dream. How was this patron caught? Or is this one of those "a guy I know" stories?
Despite his typical over zealous reaction, I have to agree with Amcd about calling this particular scenario as B.S.
Eventually, this kind of play WOULD have been flagged. If the table is able to read the bets, it should also be able to read the tray. The win/loss on this big better would not Jive with the chips in the tray and the investigation into why would begin.


I never said it wasn't flagged (and you should assume it was anyway if I'm detailing it publically at the "Magic Café" of all places).

To clairfy, to my knowledge it was only surveillance (and later marketing) who received the RFID information to track the statistics. There was nothing displayed at the table, therefore there was no immediate indication that more money was being wagered than was actually placed. I never heard how the play got nailed but I can take a few guesses. He is not a friend of mine and to be honest I can't recall his name - he is open about this story though, so if you look for it you'll find it. Take it for what it's worth.

If my stay here is going to become like all the other guys' who AMcD has had problems with, then I better just step out now. I have seen this man burn more bridges on this forum than any person I have heard of in my life. I joined to have fun participating, and this ain't fun no more. I simply don't have the time nor desire to defend my posts against AMcD's unwarranted tirades all the time.

As to AMcD's hysterical complete denial and inability to comprehend the fact that there are advantage plays beyond his scope of knowledge (as made completely transparent by his responses on the matter), I leave you with this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G_zSos8w_I . Frankly I'd be surprised if he understood that, but then again he promised to not read my posts anymore (again), which I expect him to uphold (like the 20-something times he said he was leaving this forum).
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
Cagliostro
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@ NFS and AMcD:

Come on guys. You are both assets to the BB and you both present good information so let's take a deep breath and kiss and make up.

Well, maybe not kiss but you know what I mean. Smile

By the way, it is it possible to digitally kiss on a BB?

Now that we have cleared that up, I'm going back to practicing my glide. I think I have found a use for it on the Craps table.
AMcD
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I keep going with various tools you may not be aware.

5 or 6 years ago (sorry, I'm not sure) there was a big buzz about a software that might be of some interest for guys like Cagliostro. Its name was NORA, which stands for "Non-Obvious Relationship Awareness". In short, the principle is to scan the data collected by casinos (and there is a big bunch of data!) in order to find out or, better, recognize, relationships of all sort.

Technologies used are fascinating for people interested in such fields. The name of the software has changed. It's now called IBM Relationship Resolution.

You may find this 2 pages article interesting to read:

http://books.google.fr/books?id=h2AEAAAA......&f=false

And IBM's page about it:

http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin......S206-117
iamslow
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"can't we all just get along" Smile
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
AMcD
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Here's now a device for cleaning chips:

http://chipbrite.net/chip-brite-system/

There are different systems of course, but this one can kill viruses and bacteria. Yeah, you read me, H1N1, H5N1, HIV or MRSA are destroyed (if any) during the cleaning process.

5,000 chips per hour can be processed. I think I read devices even more powerful.
AMcD
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And the famous "Angel Eye", a Baccarat shoe using bar codes on every card to prevent one of the most dangerous weapon used by cheats at this game: card switches.

The company:

http://www.angelplayingcards.com/en_casino/engineering1.php

A good résumé here:

http://cardshark-online.blogspot.fr/2009......rat.html
tommy
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Here is a man talking tech

Paul Jason, CEO of Public Gaming Research Institute, is sharing his thoughts about the future of the gaming industry.
Video shooting at ICE Totally Gaming 2012 conference, January, 2012.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKYN42Vjlyc
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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Humans give and receive hundreds of subtle (and not-so-subtle) social cues every day. Things like tone of voice, posture, eye contact and facial expression are processed by our brains in an attempt to "read" other people's moods. Any poker player will admit that they search for "tells" on their opponent's face to determine whether or not someone is bluffing. But what if you're playing against a computer?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-5746......-an-mri/
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
AMcD
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About the ICE Totally Gaming, I would have expected you providing this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnNvGjWXJ1Q
jackouille07
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Just a question, how many casinos are equiped with surveillance software? Maybe in Vegas it's near 100%, but in France I would bet it's near 0%.

Lot of french casino just have 1 blackjack table or just 1 poker table. Do you really think the will buy surveillance software at high price for just 1 table!?

They host blackjack, poker, roulette tables, just because they are forced by the law, if they could they just host slot machines. 97% of the benefits come from slots machines.
tommy
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It's not fair that the casino can use stuff to get an advantage but we of the fraternity can't.


This may be of some interest to some, like armed robbers perhaps? Smile

http://www.versasafe.com/versalink-demo/......_request
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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