I am not thinking of Clobyosh I am talking about Kalooki. I know eactly what I am talking about. Here in England, Kalooki is a popular game with the Jewish people. Many of the Jewish people are very wealthy. It is an example from life not something dreamt up. The main point is simple; You use what best fits the bill, sometimes it is manipulation.

I agree and what I have said repeatedly throughout this thread.

Personally I have always had a feeling that Erdnase was a croupier. In draw poker games perhaps and not a player. That he used manipulatioin to give his partners advantages. Manipulation …... what else could a dealer do?

Erdnase has nothing against using collusion. Maybe Erdnase had his own private “Club Room” or an interest in such and did not like divices such as maked cards being used in the joint, as that would be a “contant” threat to the clubs reputation. If a dealer in a joint is nailed manipulating the cards then the boss can fire him and blame him but if marked cards or things like that are found then that is far worse thing for the reputation of the club. I think.

@marlin

I agree on many points with you. The book is surely fascinating and time and space, my time and space, 20th/21st centuries are obviously different from 1902. Nevertheless, I don't feel a card player when reading Erdnase, I feel a classy and knowledgeable Magician.

@tommy

Erdnase's style of writing is far from the educational level of any 1902 croupier, I'm afraid. I find your idea interesting though.

Here is some further insight into Erdnase. I first read “Expert” when I was around 13-14 years old and it took me about 6 months to have just about everything in the “gambling” part of the book mastered, except for the Erdnase second deal. Erdnase erroneously said the second deal was only good for use with marked cards and since he disdained marked cards I did not bother learning the move. (I later learned that the second deal had a multitude of uses, none of which needed marked cards.)

Quite frankly, mastering the moves was not that difficult. I was studying piano at this time, playing Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc., plus running the scales and doing finger exercises every day and that was considerably harder to master than gambling moves. In fact, card and dice moves have always been relatively easy for me to master.

Up to this point I had been weaned on the Erdnase philosophy which was to either run up a hand or deal base and have a partner on your right cut, or if playing single-o, put in a crimp, hold out for the cut (for a bottom deal), or do a hop. For reference, I will call this the Erdnase System and it based 100% on sleight of hand. Erdnase frowned on using paper or cold decks – in his opinion that was for lesser cheats. Further, according to Erdnase, we don’t worry about the other guy getting a good hand, just concentrate on getting your hand. All of this was gospel to me at this point- just like the information on the expose DVDs is gospel to many of the current crop of card table aficionados.

However, I was now reading other “old-time” books and getting exposed to other more practical and safer methods – sleight of hand methods that were superior to the Erdnase System. These methods did not require all the complicated running up of hands, hopping the cut and relatively dangerous dealing from the bottom. For example, when working with a partner in a draw poker game, the spread was a very powerful method that was better than anything in Erdnase. Your partner could sit anywhere at the table in this case and not on your immediate right. Capping the deck was another very effective sleight of hand method when working with a partner. Further, the three card trick for poker beat the Erdnase System hands down for deceptively getting the money and for single-o play the double discard was very effective. (By the way, a more advanced version of the double discard was used in the card rooms in Gardena for years and just kept getting the money.) Erdnase was rapidly losing its “glow” as the “be all, end all” method of beating the games. In fact, the Erdnase System was actually quite inferior and not the “real” work in use at that time.

The final coup de grace for me was when I read a series of article in the National Police Gazette in which a professional gambler writing under the pen name of Anthony Marrone divulged the high level professional methods he used during prohibition and into the 1930s and 1940s. This was a complete “Aha” moment for me and jumped me well beyond the Erdnase System and destroyed any small remnant of its efficacy. He explained how professional cheating was actually done, using steerers, steer games, professional level plays with shills and learning and doing the real work under fire alongside a professional international hustler.

To make a long story short, here I am at this time about 15-16 years old and Erdnase turns out to be almost 100% BS and not the real work currently in use at that time using sleight of hand. Further, when you get into top level paper and other very deceptive “gimmicks” being used at this time, Erdnase does not really stack up at all. It is really in many respects “kid stuff.”

Now I know that most on this BB reading this have not really been exposed to the type things I am discussing here and will disagree. That’s okay. But for the very few who would like to understand further and are not threatened by what I am writing, Erdnase is strictly for magicians – period. It is kid stuff and no pro uses it and I doubt that any pro used it even back in 1902. Erdnase appears to be more of a perplexing oddity rather than a professional level "hustling" system.

Yep Cag, many noticed Erdnase did not mention very famous and common moves of his times, like the spread.

As a matter of fact, there are a lot of famous guys not kneeling down to Erdnase's, Giorgio comes to my mind as I'm writing.

As a foreigner I was quite old when I discovered it. Not only because I didn't speak English, but mainly and above all because no one around me had ever heard about it! I'm gonna be honest, 50% of my out of love for this book comes from Magicians always quoting him, always mentioning it. Geez, looks like you're an idiot when you disagree with Erdnase or simply when you haven't read it!

I like the first part of the book though.

About that period, I prefer books like Maskelyne's. But very few books of that times describe techniques. I did enjoy though reading Devol, Quinn, McClintock, Dodge... I didn't really appreciate Jonathan Green, too much BS. Anyway, I like books from that century.

First of all, thank you very much for your insights - I find them both extremely interesting and a pleasant read. I am sure your detailed analysis of Erdnase will meet tremendous interest (I know I would be very interested xD)

Adding to the topic of this thread... This is one of the most fascinating things about this book, and maybe the key to its success. The mystery of its author, the thrill of believing in *whatever one wants to believe*. At least most people agree that EATC is a very interesting read which raised the standard of magical literature by giving a role model on how to describe a sleight. Wheather its author was a magician, a gambler, a croupier or just somebody like me who enjoyed handling a deck of cards (52 pieces of paper and endless possibilities to waste my time - could it be any better? lol).

So far I cant compare it to Steve Forte`s Poker Protection as I havent got my hands on a copy yet, but for those around here that would be interested in Maskelyne`s Sharps and Flats it can be found here http://archive.org/details/sharpsflatscompl00maskuoft At least there is no leeway about the authors identity here

Again, thanks to all of you for some thought provocing posts and

all the best,
Sven ^^

This is a little off subject but Albatross (Sven) mentioned on another thread that he only had a few books, one of which is Expert Card Technique; it occurred to me that….

For some of the newer guys who are interested in the type card manipulation discussed on this forum, don’ t have many books or perhaps much money to spend and would like to read a relatively inexpensive and very good book that has some “real” gambling moves described with clear explanations, and were willing to put in the time to master them correctly, one of my suggestions would be Expert Card Technique although Card Mastery by MacDougall would be my first choice if someone is unable to buy many books, plus it has the full text of "Expert."

Expert Card Technique is excellent and describes mostly moves for magic performers, but there are some gems in the book that can be used for both endeavors, magic and gambling. It is superb book on sleight of hand card manipulation. So from memory...

In my opinion, two of the best table faro shuffle techniques are described in the chapter on the Table Faro. In the chapter on False Shuffles, there is an excellent explanation of a strip out shuffle by Charlie Miller, plus the “Gamblers False Shuffle” which was later called the “Sky” shuffle and used in casinos with good results and there is also a top stock control shuffle.

In the Chapter on False Deals, the strike second deal has some resemblance to the second deal used by Walter Scott, but the grip described will create problems in mastering because the deck is jammed into the base of the left thumb. The double push-off second deal is almost impossible to use for consecutive seconds as the top card on the pull-back will not square with the deck properly, but the bottom deal is okay for magicians.

There are one or two very good peeks in the chapter on Peeking. Additionally, the gamblers flat palm has considerable utility at the card table as well as the Zingone Table Pass. The Zingone Table Pass as described is for magicians and demonstrators, but I took Zingone’s concept, made some important modifications and came up with a two handed card table hop that in my opinion is far superior to any other two handed hop of this nature that I have ever seen. It has great angles at the card table, is extremely deceptive and almost impossible to nail from the front or either side.

This is just a heads up for you newer guys, or perhaps some of the older members who missed some of these items or would like to review them again.

Expert Card Technique - - Great book.

Erdnase is not suggesting that one use sleight of hand and nothing but sleight of hand and it is a misinterpretation to suggest that he is suggesting that. Erdnase clearly has no problem with none sleight of hand methods as can be seen in his words here: “Advantages without dexterity can be taken in almost any card game when two or more players are in collusion, by the use of any secret code of signals that will disclose the hand of each to the others. For instance, in Poker the ally holding the best cards will be the only one to stay, thus playing the best hand of the allies against the rest; quite sufficient advantage to give a large percentage in favour of the combination. Again, the allies may resort to "crossfiring," by each raising until the other players drop out. There are hundreds of small but ultimately certain advantages to be gained in this manner, if collusion is not suspected. No single player can defeat a combination, even when the cards are not manipulated." SWE

What Erdnase does recommend is to use sleight of hand rather than use cheating devices, such as hold-outs, marked cards and so on. He gives his reason for his advice and says these devices are a constant threat to his reputation etc. I personally agree with Erdnase. I would rather not use a device if I can do the job using sleight of hand. That does not mean I would not use marked cards etc but it means exactly what it says. As I own a “club room” I do not like to have any cheating devices on me or the premisses at all. As I said I was happy that when the Gambling Commission came to my club room that all the equipment was thoroughly checked by them and was declared to be all on the the square. It is not merely a case of using what best fits the bill. One must also take account and beware of the danger of merely being in possession of a cheating device. ie One merely walks into a casino with a cheating device and one is “on offer” as we say in the trade.

Circa 1902 there were no eye in the sky of course and I personally would not use any sleight of hand in a casino today. Actualy gambling was prohibited when Ednase was afoot in the USA. What there was though was a boom in gambling that started with the gold rush and ended about 1910. Gambling in the America was by a large an underground affair. It was legal in Nevada at that the time Erdnase wrote his book. The underground gaming houses thenselves as Ednase points out were likely to be crooked. He says; “When we speak of professional card players we do not refer to the proprietors or managers of gaming houses. The percentage in their favor is a known quantity, or can be readily calculated, and their profits are much the same as any business enterprise. Where the civil authorities countenance these institutions they are generally conducted by men of well known standing in the community. The card tables pay a percentage or "rake off," and the management provides a "look out" for the protection of its patrons. Where the gaming rooms must be conducted in secret the probabilities of the player's apparent chances being lessened are much greater. However, our purpose is to account for the unknown percentage that must needs be in favor of the professional card player to enable him to live.” I doubt Ednase was talking of playing in these places but was talking about private games and private club rooms. One has to look at it all from his time and place.

Again, thank you very much Cagliostro. Its true that I have neither an extensive library, nor at this point of my life the funds to change this in a fast way. But I do not consider this a bad thing - this way I get to actually read the books I got without the struggle of "o *** but I also got the all new book by X, maybe I should read this now" I will certainly grab Expert Card Technique and look into the chapters you mention - keep the good information coming!

Also I will start looking for Card Mastery by MacDougall... let the (never ending?) hunt for wisdom begin!

All the best,
Sven

Here are some additional observations on the efficacy of Erdnase as I don’t want to leave the impression that there is nothing in the book that can be used effectively at the card table.

Notwithstanding the fact that the spread, capping the deck, the three card trick and the double discard (and even more moves than that), were all much more effective, deceptive and safer sleight of hand card cheating moves at the time of Erdnase and thereafter (and not counting all the great and deceptive gaffs that were available at the time), there are some sleight of hand moves in Erdnase that could sensibly be used at the card table.

The short shuffle for the bottom stock coupled with the running cuts sequences, the overhand break shuffle and also “playing heavy” which Erdnase calls playing an extra card. In playing heavy, perhaps the way he steals a card to clean up would not leak playing heads up or against 4 to 5 opponents on a round table in 1902, but on modern card tables the steal is too open. When I write these things I am referring to practical real world application, not theoretical musings.

However, in my opinion what no accomplished pro who was using the above mentioned methods (spread, etc.), during the time of Erdnase and thereafter would touch under fire Holding Out for the Cut, the Erdnase System of Stock Shuffles, The Erdnase System of Cull Shuffling and the hops he describes. Why use moves that are complicated, laborious, more easily subject to detection and less effective when much better moves are available? In my opinion, to argue to the contrary would suggest not having knowledge of the better moves I am referring to or having a blind agenda to support Erdnase no matter what.

Yes, I know it is all situational and if you are playing against three year old kids who are drunk you can mark the cards with chewing gum. What I’m referring to is playing several times a week in decent games where the players are not all asleep. If one masters a myriad of BS moves because it is all situational and he may encounter a game to use them somewhere or sometime is irrelevant. In the real world one learns the best moves he is capable of using and use them all the time. Erdnase’s methods are not the best moves or methodology, then or now. It is mostly for magicians.

I can’t see how anyone who has any real world hustling experience over time (and knows the “better” moves not even hinted at by Erdnase that I listed and am referring to above (and more), would argue to the contrary. In my opinion, reading books, watching DVDs, working in a casino, running a game or games, doing expose demos and so forth is not the type experience I am talking about here and without hustling experience can only guess at this.

As I said, most of Erdnase is in the nature of an oddity and geared to demonstrators, magicians and hobbyists. The descriptions and illustration in “Expert” are great and the philosophy and psychology is for the most part very good.

I might add that someone running illegal or legal games would be smart not to have cheating devices around that could be traced back to the game operator, but that is not applicable to our discussion here and not relevant to the application and conclusions I reached regarding the application of Erdnase in private games.

Also, Erdnase mentions that collusion would give a team an edge but still he is not teaching that or even advocating that. What he is teaching and advocating is sleight of hand cheating techniques mostly of his own invention for private game use and leaving out a myriad of methods that are just as good and usually better.

Erdnase, I think, would have regarded writing about some things, such as “The spread”, as exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes. Personally I am not a fan of, the spread, as I don't think it would have much chance of flying in any serious poker game.

@tommy

I understand your point but... what is a serious game? I think it's a game with big money in the middle. Now, the fact there is serious money does not involve procedures are very strict. Mainly around 1900-1930. I have seen very lax contexts with huge money bet where you could have introduced 5 cold decks per minute and no one would have noticed!

With today's rules, sure, the Spread would be near to impossible to perform. But in 1902... (above all if there were one big fish and 4 sharks around the table).

Well yes I agree ..... it is hard to say what is a serious game.

Maybe you remember a few years ago an episode of "High Stake Poker". The guys play hundred thousands bucks. At one moment one player leaves the table and picks up a card on the floor (!). He shows it to the dealer and to the other guys and, clearly, no one gives a *** about it!

How can you imagine that? Trust me, when I play $100, I become mad when one card is found on the floor...

Of course you don't know that and you keep quoting Erdnase to make your point. What about you. What about what your experience and what you know for a fact. How can you possibly say the spread was some antiquated ruse in 1902.

I don't quote Erdnase. I don't have to. I write about my experience at this, not what someone else said and I don't guess.

Do you know what the three card trick is and how it is used? Do you know what capping the deck is and how it is used in a poker game. Do you know how the double discard works. They were using it in the card rooms of Gardena in the 60s and 70s.

Are these all antiquated ruses or are you just saying? Are you guessing? Quoting Erdnase is not quoting authority me. That is magician talk authority. Anyone who repeatedly relies on quoting a third party implies he does not have the experience to quote what he knows. Tell me what you know for a fact based upon your experience and then we have something to talk about.

What do you do if two cards are found on the floor? LOL

No chance. Our games use alternating dealers, each player deals in turn. I handle cards several hours per week, I would notice 2 cards or more missing quite fast. Above all with plastic decks!

One card missing, well, maybe I would not feel it. But 2...

My experience of Erdnase is that I found a way I can use something from it in high stakes poker games.